Other then making it more difficult to close the bolt, is there any other consequence ?

If so, what is the way to fix that problem !

Please tell us if the brass was always fired in the same gun. Tell us how many times it's been reloaded. Tell us what kind of die you are using and if you are using the "full travel" of the die. Take a measurement of the bulge...I'm guessing it's .514" or slightly greater accross?
Have you ever had the problem before in that gun?

Yes Excessive pressure can ensue !.

Cartridge spaces on the belt !. So critical is the sizing method used . Cartridge grows when fired may need trimming or shoulder set back .

A Case gauge is a very useful tool as are accurate calipers .

It can also make it extremely difficult to extract the spent case !.

Let me see if I have this right? you have a bulge on one side of the cartridge case, right?
probably isn't anything to worry about. my trhoughts are the shell is laying on the bottom of the chamber which gives some suport to the shell, but there is some leeway at the top of the chamber. When fired, the shell expannds to fill the chamber sealing it off, but the top of the shell has nothing to restrain it from overexpanding slightly, the the bulge. How noticable the bulge would be depends on whther the chamber has minimum spec or is at the maximum allowed specs, which would of course show a larger bulge.
As an example, my custom Mauser .35 Wherlen shows almost no signs of a bulge, but the Remington 700 Classic Whelen has a moderate bulge and sad to say, the Ruger 77RS, also a Whelen has one of the sloppiest chambers I've ever seen and the bulge is very noticable.
I guess what I'm saying is what you're seeing is most likely perfectly normal and nothing to worry about. I would have been a bit more positive if you'd shown a picture of the problem, but my best guess is that it's nothing more than a chamber that's closer to the max allowable dimensions than anything more serious.
Paul B.

Sounds like Paul B has it right. I've also noticed a change of brand can make a big difference, and as for being tighter, as soon as it's a bit difficult to chamber you just need to PFLS instead of neck sizing.

I didn't see where the OP said it was on one side. If the bulge is uniform around the belt, then I am thinking excessive headspace do to improper sizing. If that is the case, then adjusting the sizing die to partial or neck size only should help. A lot of sloppy &RM chambers out there.

I think one option to help remedy the case problems might be at:
http://www.larrywillis.com/
It worked for me.
The die has prolonged case live as well.

Here is more info, I am shooting with a newer savage 7 mm remington magnum, I have winchester and federal brass which were shot only once from the same rifle, the bulge is uniform and is all around just above the belt, it was there before and after full resizing.

I found a picture on the net, it is not exactly the same as my brass. On my brass there is no crack like seen on this picture, but that shiny ring just above the belt, any idea on what could cause this?

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=655993

quote:

Originally posted by Bobletroutcul:
Here is more info, I am shooting with a newer savage 7 mm remington magnum, I have winchester and federal brass which were shot only once from the same rifle, the bulge is uniform and is all around just above the belt, it was there before and after full resizing.

I found a picture on the net, it is not exactly the same as my brass. On my brass there is no crack like seen on this picture, but that shiny ring just above the belt, any idea on what could cause this?

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=655993

That is a head separation. It apears your rifle has excessive headspace & you'll need to adjust your dies so the bolt just closes on a resized case. You can expect 2-3 loadings only if you keep shooting factory ammo or cases F.l. sized.

So you mean that there is too much headspace on the rifle that was shoot about 100 round from 2 different ammo compagnie ?

Whan I close the bolt, there is no excessive pressure required!

Please if you have some time, read this, I am wondering if it could be a gap between the forward most part of the bolt and the rear most part of the bbl (chamber).

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2741384

The only thing I know that causes that in a belted magnum is excessive headspace. Because the Savage bbl can be reomoved, maybe it's possible the bbl. hasn't been reinstalleed correctly & you have excessive headspace. The 7remmag is probably the most sloppy chambered cartridge in factory rifles. It's not uncommon to have new factrot rifles do this w/ factory ammo or reloaded ammo that is F.L. resized. That shiney spot will be a head sep. in another firing or two. You can check yourself by running a thin 90deg hooked wire inside the case near the head, into the bulge & you'll feel the crack forming. Have a gunsmith check the headspace w/ a go/nogo guage. Your brass isn't ruined but pretty close.

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
The only thing I know that causes that in a belted magnum is excessive headspace.

I strongly disagree, your worrying Bob needlessly. IMHO, due to experence, most of my fired brass show a bright ring and it has little to do with a head seperation.

All that has happened is that the factory undersized case has expanded to fit the chamber.
This MAY also be backwards to take up any normal headspace tolerance built in.

So whether it's all the way round or part way makes no difference. The boys on AR tend to advise to now get the case to headspace on the SHOULDER. This is done by PFLS'ing or NS'ing.

So, this expansion or stretch ring, which MAY turn into the position of a head seperation if mishandled by relentless FLS'ing all the way, will tend to get shinier just due to rubbing on the die wall or chamber wall.

If Bob gets really worried, forget the wire, pick the worst looking, cut it off just up a bit and look at the good case now ruined.

Hey, here is some additional info, 2 years ago I got from a man that did not reload 6 box of hornady brass, 1 time shoot for a few $, yesterday, I went to have a look at the hornady brass and they were showing the same mark, same place, and all around like the winchester and federal also 1 time shot. So what is that mark, I know the chance that 2 different rifle would have the same problem could be possible, I am getting confuse!

Hey Bob, There is probably nothing at all wrong with your rifle or the cases. The "Burnished Ring" ahead of the Belt is what most folks call the Pressure Ring and it is where you measure Pressure Ring Expansion(PRE).

The case Expands under normal firing Pressure and as the Case Wall nears the Belt, the Case begins to thicken with a slight Taper internally. If you look in a Speer Manual, you can see this or Section one yourself.

The "Burnished Ring" is created when the Die "Resizes" that widest portion of the Case by rubbing against it.

This is normal for every case made, including the Non-Belted Cases.

Best of luck to you.

Thanks to everyone for there imputs, I think I will carry on with my reloding and see what the brass look after the first few shoot, probably I will post again what they look like after.

I would take Bob from down under s advise !.

http://www.larrywillis.com/7mmremmag.html

Do all YOU can do to ensure correct resizing .

I would cast the camber and check it for specs

my self . A bright shiny ring ahead of the Belt

is some what normal a bulge isn't !.

The chamber is made to exacting tolerances

least wise is supposed to be Cast it know for sure !.

You may have excessive dimensions in the throat .
A few firings won't produce case separation

but given the pressure and the Bright ring

Bulge it's a matter of a short case life ,

before it does happen .

Been using and reloading them for over 40 years it does happen !.

On a Hunt it's unacceptable !. IMO

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
The only thing I know that causes that in a belted magnum is excessive headspace.

I strongly disagree, your worrying Bob needlessly. IMHO, due to experence, most of my fired brass show a bright ring and it has little to do with a head seperation.

Well that is certainly your right to disagree, but my own experience tells me that if you ignore that bulge & bright ring, especially on belted or flanged cases, a head sep. is eminent.
Check for yourself Bob, section a case & see if it is already stretching ot the point of cracking. Then adjust your sizing die to min. headspace the case on the shoulder & not the belt. It's one reason I am not a belted mag fan, but they can be loaded quite succesfully mor than 10X w/ proper sizing.

Ok this is getting interesting, how can I confirm that is it only a bright shiny ring or a bulge ? And for the headspace, I now read 2 different story, should I use the belt or the shoulder ?

See www.larrywillis.com

quote:

Originally posted by Bobletroutcul:
Ok this is getting interesting, how can I confirm that is it only a bright shiny ring or a bulge ? And for the headspace, I now read 2 different story, should I use the belt or the shoulder ?

I use the shoulder height and just reload my belted mags like I do my unbelted rounds.

You can control the shoulder height, you can't control the belt height (without a lathe).

quote:

Originally posted by Bobletroutcul:
Other then making it more difficult to close the bolt, is there any other consequence ?

If so, what is the way to fix that problem !

IF your brass is bulging ahead of the belt, there are two possible causes: One - the chamber is oversize at that point (sloppy chamber); or, your loads are too hot!!

IF your chamber is sloppy, there's one thing to watch out for: IOnsipient case head separation, caused by the case stretching forward on firing, thinning the brass at that spot; and when you FL resize the brass, you set it up to repeat this process, until the case head is torn off on firing! depending on how far ahead of the case head this rupture occurs, it CAN let HV gases out into your action, damaging the gun & you in the process.

I must be lucky. None of my belted magnums have ever shown any sign of developing a bulge of any consequence ahead of the belt......BUT I have had case head separations in a Winchester M71 in .348. Luckily, the rupture was far enough forward to prevent blowback of gas into the rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobletroutcul:
So you mean that there is too much headspace on the rifle that was shoot about 100 round from 2 different ammo compagnie ?

Whan I close the bolt, there is no excessive pressure required!

Please if you have some time, read this, I am wondering if it could be a gap between the forward most part of the bolt and the rear most part of the bbl (chamber).

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2741384

Belted cases headspace on the front edge of the belt, NOT ON THE SHOULDER LIKE RIMLESS CASES DO.

Many belted case chambers were cut with a little more distance between the bolt face and the case shoulder than they actually should have. When the round is fired, the shoulder is 'fireformed" forward some, and when you FL size the fired case, you shove the shoulder back where it started out the first time. Then, when you fire again, the shoulder is forced forward again, and so on, as many times as you resize & fire it again & again. This does not mean your rifle has excessive headspace, because belted cases DO NOT headspace on the shoulder, but on the belt, as I stated above!

However, IF your rifle's chamber is a bit overly long from bolt face to shoulder, a problem arises due to full-length resizing the case before shooting it again. This is because every time you shove the shoulder back & fire it again, the case brass is stretched ever thinner just in front of the belt, UNTIL THE CASE RUPTURES just ahead of the belt. This phenomenon is called "incipient case head separation". ANY case that's used in a chamber in which the shoulder is a bit too far from the bolt face will show this effect to some degree, even after being fired only once.

The solution is simple: either throw away the cases after 1-2 shots; or, don't screw your FL die into the press far enough to move the shoulder back when you resize your cases which were fireformed to your chamber.

However, from your description, your chamber appears to be just a little too big around right in front of the belt, so your brass is expanding a little more than it might in a tighter chamber. Such case expansion is no problem, as long as you are not getting head separations!! To check for case head separations, take a paper clip. Straighten it out and bend a little hook in one end. Now, holding the straight end of the clip wire, use the hook to feel along the inside sidewall of the case just ahead of the belt. Is the inside case wall of uniform thickness at that point, or can you feel an indentation in the inside case wall? If the case wall is perfectly straight inside, with no depression, the case has not started to separate, and is OK to reload. If, however, you feel the hook fall into a depression inside at the spot just ahead of the case head, that case has begun to separate and must be trashed! If you detect such separations, readjust your FL die to size about 1/3 of the case neck-just enough to hold the new bullet, dispose of the damaged brass, and start over with a new batch! A die adjusted like this will stop the shoulder from being set back every time you reload it, and your cases will last a lot longer, and are safe as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobletroutcul:
Ok this is getting interesting, how can I confirm that is it only a bright shiny ring or a bulge ? And for the headspace, I now read 2 different story, should I use the belt or the shoulder ?

It's only "interesting" because of some people here don't know what their talking about.

I say again, I can load a moderate load in one case and get no case expansion ring. Same load same rifle different brand brass, gives a frightening looking bulge on about half diameter of the case.

So, what's the difference. Case size, thickness,and or hardness comes to mind.
I get frustrated when people say to throw out the brass, but won't advocate cutting ONE to look. YOU WILL FEEL a "dent" with the wire probe, because it naturally occures in conjunction with the outside bulge. UNTIL you feel a real "crack" of insip. head sep. you won't know the difference.

As for bulge or shiney ring, well one leads to the other. YOU HAVE BOTH.

As for throwing good brass away, chamber casting (geese, are you a gunsmith?)(you have to know what your doing with what material with what extraction method, with scrinkage/cracking possibilities etc, then you measure it and then what?????

Brass is meant to expand to fit the chamber!!!!
It is then meant to be sized ONLY ENOUGH to go back in. EXCESS working of the brass WILL/MAY cause head sep. A slightly oversize chamber WON'T cause it in itself.

The only way to just size it enough is to PFLs on the sholder, or Neck size.

Savage, was it? They are supposed to be easy to adjust the headspace, but I don't think they would help a chamber with a loose headspace from a belted cut chamber. SO SIZe on the NECK.

You are getting some correct information from JAL, Hot Core and El Deguello and others but it may just be a little hard to understand for someone unfamiliar with the whole process.

A little bulge above the belt is common and occurs at the pressure ring where the solid base stops and the thinner diameter brass starts


You do need to resize only the neck for the first 2, 3 or 4 firings until the case has expanded enough to fully fit your chamber and then push the shoulder back the very minimal amount. I push my shoulders back .001" to .0005" to where it still has some contact at the shoulder but I don't have much resistance to bolt closure. They make a very good "thingy" to measure this called a Hornady Headspace Gauge.

You probably won't need the Willis collet, but if you do it will do a good job. I reload for 41 rifles now and many of those are belted magnums. Haven't had to have that tool yet.

By definition, headspace is the measurement between the case head and the point on the case that stops forward movement when slammed forward by the firing pin. Belted magnums are said to headspace on the front of the belt. However, after the case has expanded you can then headspace on the shoulder and you should. It is correct that belted magnum cases usually have 2 times as much clearance between the case shoulder and chamber shoulder when new.

Lots of luck finding the start of a case head separtion with the bent paper clip. Never works for me and I have had one on a 338 win mag that had a lot of shoulder clearance on new cases


Once again, the Hornady Headspace Gauge will teach you a lot about how your case is expanding (despite what HC might say).

Other than that, if your case chambers easy, don't worry about a slight bulge, just neck size until your get a crush fit and then Partial Full Length Size.

quote:

Once again, the Hornady Headspace Gauge will teach you a lot about how your case is expanding (despite what HC might say).

Actually, Woods is correct - it will teach you that your Billfold has been "Lightened"!!!

quote:

Posted by Bob:
And for the headspace, I now read 2 different story, should I use the belt or the shoulder?

I'd agree with JAL that using the normal P-FLR Method(Headspace off the Shoulder) is the best way to go with a Bolt Action used in Non-Dangerous Game country. I get the best possible case life and best possible accuracy in my rifles by doing it that way.

If in Dangerous Game country, then you need to FLR(Headspace off the Belt), or when using other than Bolt Actions, and just count on not getting as many Reloads per Case.

Good questions.

I think these people have a full an complete understanding of the problems associated with Belted Cartridges . Least wise I agree with what they say ,as well as with some others on this forum .

This link gives a novice reloader Keene insight to curing what problems plague them .


http://www.larrywillis.com/answers.html

Just a final postscript: If a person wished to handload ammunition, it pays to understand the concepts of headspace in regard to rimless, rimmed, belted and straight-walled cartridge cases......

quote:

IF your brass is bulging ahead of the belt, there are two possible causes: One - the chamber is oversize at that point (sloppy chamber); or, your loads are too hot!!

.

Bingo! Or you could have both!! The mention of difficulty closing the bolt is also revealing as well. Either you are in fact loading too hot or you are not getting a good resize of your brass when running through the resizer die. OR both!!

Tell us about the loads you are using..? Also are you checking the length of your cases and trimming accordingly?

Some more info, I went to the local gun shop to see if they had a headspace gauge "no luck for that" but I show the guy my brass, he told me that is was due to stretching and told me I should neck size only and it should be good. I did a last inspection before setting the primer and kept the one that looked the worse, after I cut it, I inspected the inside and found no sign of crack, but half a inche from the belt, I can see an other ring on the inside that may be a futur place where the head separation will be! I am planning to bring the gun to a gunsmith after rifle seasons, I heard the with the savage you can adjust the barrel to reduce the problem.

Thanks for all the imputs!

Have you ever fired factory rounds in the rifle ?. You do what you feel is necessary to ensure your

safety . I would purchase a factory name brand box of ammo , take your rifle too the range bag it

and shoot it . Check the brass an accuracy of it with factory loads .

Match your twist rate and bullet weight the best you can . Inspect the brass carefully .

Does it show the same signs as your reloads ?. If not you may have saved yourself some money

and an necessary trip too the Gun Smiths . Just a thought besides you get once fired brass out of your

chamber for comparison too your other brass . It can't hurt to try .

quote:

The 7remmag is probably the most sloppy chambered cartridge in factory rifles

Ding ding ding
We have a winner.

I had similar problem with 257 ROB AI, turns out I was "over" re-sizing them

try backing off your full sizer die or get a neck die

I dont think backing off a sizer die will cure a sloppy chamber issue. The only thing that will do is make it less obvious. The problem is still there.

As stated earlier those bright rings above the head are either caused by a sloppy chamber or overloading.. It means the brass has been expanded out of proportion. Backing off the sizer die just keeps that part of the brass from being properly re-sized.

The only way to know for sure is to check the thickness of the brass.

Yesssss, um how?
And what about brass hardness, or reducing the load abit or as Doc someone says try some factory rounds pref. of the same make brass.
Or some different brand of brass, hopefully heavier. We didn't get a photo did we, sometimes we're all argueing about something else.

quote:

or reducing the load abit or as Doc someone says try some factory rounds

So far the only thing I shot was factory ammunition!

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
Well that is certainly your right to disagree, but my own experience tells me that if you ignore that bulge & bright ring, especially on belted or flanged cases, a head sep. is eminent.

Your dead right, I just say it needn't be from excessive headspace, just a "big" chamber.

Whatever the reason, and lets remember we have here a new rifle, factory once fired cases, from two different rifles, no need to panic but it definatly needs attention.

Proper sizing will save the day. And over time cutting up the worse looking ones give peace of mind.

Then if one cracks, hoy the lot.