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Can someone remind me what causes a group that will put two touching, and one 1 3/4 inch up or down? Here are the details. The rifle is a M 70 Classic Stainless with a 4x Leupold. The load is 200 Accubond over 58.5 weighed gr R-22, with partial-full-length-sized Winchester brass, and it does it with both WLR and WLRM primers. The range is 100 yards, and the hold was good. I didn't pull the shot, I don't think. I really want to use this bullet, but the best I can do is about 1.3" groups (Adequate, but I would prefer under 1".) Without going way overboard on case prep, concentricity, and the like, what do I need to do here? Do I need to check my oal and shorten it up? I am about 3/32 short of the mag length, so I may be seating into the lands, but would that cause that much difference? Do I need to try a different powder? Thanks for the interest, Good hunting, Graham | ||
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it's hunting rifle if the first 2 are good i wouldn't bother. i would look for something touching the bbl after it has warmed up from the first 2 shots though. | |||
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Is this a hunting rifle? I assume it is the shot that counts the most is your first shot you won't be dragging your bench along for shots 2 and 3 | |||
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I can answer this.... Go find a good Barrel Breakin sequence and follow it to a 'T'..... Try running a dry patch through after each shot... I feel your barrel is fowling and the bullet's bearing surface may be longer than others you have shot that shoot good and it's effecting this bullet more.... Let me know if this works... Cooper .223 - Burris 8-32x50 JR Custom AR-15 - Burris 8-32x50 Mil-dot | |||
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I would go to the range with a good spotting scope and some paper and pencil. Note the position of each hole after each shot on a mock target so that you can tell if the wayward shot is usually the first, last or random. If it is consistant, it may have something to do with the heating or fouling of the barrel. ******************************************************* For every action, there is an equal and opposite malfunction. | |||
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To me, don't waste your time shooting groups until you fix the problem, go buy some heavy bullets (manufactured or reloaded) and do a good break-in.. Glen Zediker has a great one, it's on the net, i can't remember where right now. How many rounds have been through this rifle? Cooper .223 - Burris 8-32x50 JR Custom AR-15 - Burris 8-32x50 Mil-dot | |||
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I have the same issue. Two shots touching third, one inch to left or right. Generally it is the first two shots fired from a cold barrel in these heavy magnums that are the tell tell signs. After that, fouling, heat, etc. will drive you crazy... Im anxious to hear from the others on this topic.. | |||
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Have you looked at the bedding? Is it bedded with hot glue at the action and a pressure point at the tip of the forearm? The barrel may be moving with heat. ________________________ "Every country has the government it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre | |||
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Thanks greatly to all who posted. I will try to answer the questions I forgot to address in my initial post. Yes, it is a hunting rig. It is completely stock except for a trigger job done by a reasonably competent smith. The rifle may be past the point of break in. If I recall, there are nearly 1000 rounds down the barrel, though I have not actually counted all of them. Yes, I have looked at the bedding, but I don't remember if there is a pressure point at the tip. It is bedded with hot glue at the action. Mort Canard, Thanks for the idea. I actually did that the last time I was at the range, and found that it was the 1st and 3rd shot that were touching, at least on that group. I may have to test another one to see if that will work the same way. If nothing works, I may just have to pick the load that worked the best, and live with it. The gun has previously shot several groups well under an inch, with my current go to load being a 180 partition over 55.5 IMR 4831. It has grouped at 3/4 for three at 100, but does not always. I guess I mean that the rifle itself has proved that it will shoot well for a factory gun. Maybe I am just too picky. I will post results when I get a chance to try some of this stuff, though. Thanks very much, Graham | |||
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Never heard of "hot glue" being used for bedding, must be something new??? Could be a number of causes with the varied groups. I would first check the action screws for tightness, as well as scope mounts. If these were good, then I would look for rubbing issues inside the action around the recoli lug area for wear or for a pressure point in the barrel channel or possibly a rub on the side of the channel indicating some warpage of the stock. If the stock is synthetic, I would look heavily at the recoil lug area. I had one that was shooting great and then started to wander around a bit. Found out the lug area had developed somewhat of a hairline crack on one side. After replacing it things went back to normal. Could also be form the barrel heating up as well. I have a thin barreled 30-06 which if several rounds are fired in succession they will start to wander a bit on the target. The action is bedded, and the barrel completely floated. Simply the thinner barrel heats up and groups suffer. Not a big issue as the first three shots are easily covered with a quarter. Just after that they start to spread out to half dollar size pretty quick. Mike / Tx | |||
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If you've shot 3/4moa groups w/ that load before, then the "flyers" are probably you. I have good days & bad off the bench. Some days, I shoot to the load/rifles ability & some days I don't. When I work a new load up, I'll often shoot one group w/ my known load so I know how I am shooting that day. I agree, my first cold bbl. shot is more important on a hunting rig than the ultimate tiny group. LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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Factory Winchester. It may not be hot glue, but it's hot glue's first cousin. I'm suggesting that playing with the bedding would be in order, certainly with the pressure bedding. ________________________ "Every country has the government it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre | |||
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I think the problem is there is no problem. undoubtably the problem is the barrel was restraightenend somewhere along the lines during manufacture. The group open up once the heat is back in the barrel. Also 3 shot groups say nothing. 10 shot groups tell the true tale. You may think it is a one-holer with a flier or fluke. The truth is probably it is a 2" gun over 10 shots. ETA: That "hot glue" bedding has been on the recoil lug of Winchester's and Brownings since the mid 1980's. PA Bear Hunter, NRA Benefactor | |||
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1000 rounds doesn't matter, When you break in a barrel you clean before each shot so each bullet can burnish your barrel, and you very LONG bullets for this process. I know they have throat maintenance bullets at MIDWAY from 'TUBB' i'm lookin at purchasing some as well because after 1200 rounds I've lost .025 in my groups with same materials.. still at .300 average for the cooper but I've had a lot of HOT HOT loads... 28.5 gr of H335 and 40 grainers... magnum primers... that will put a hurtin on your throat. I'll let you kno if they work, and vice versa if you try them... Also get a gunsmith to give your gun a muzzel crown... i've heard up to 1/4MOA from it... mine was stock so i dont know.. Just try 20rnds worth of cleaning VERY WELL after each of the first 10 shots... then 2-3 shots there after until you hit 20.... I'd like to know your findings  Cooper .223 - Burris 8-32x50 JR Custom AR-15 - Burris 8-32x50 Mil-dot | |||
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Nine times out of ten, when this sort of thing happens, the culprit is a barrel/action bedding problem, not an ammo problem. "Bitte, trinks du nicht das Wasser. Dahin haben die Kuhen gesheissen." | |||
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+1 Another thing could be inconsistent hold while shooting. I've done the exact same thing toooo many times; two touching, one out by 1/2", or 3/4". In fact, I had a string going last summer of about 6 groups all with that same type grouping. My cause was not holding correctly for all 3 shots. Don | |||
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What are the odds you will have 1 flier EVERY group........ My bet is still on fowling... try that dry patch after each shot during your groups if your group closes by 1/8" or so then i'm sticking to re-breaking in your barrel... i've been down this road... you can re-break in your barrel... get some good copper solvent... and some long bullets Cooper .223 - Burris 8-32x50 JR Custom AR-15 - Burris 8-32x50 Mil-dot | |||
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M70, I don't want to oversimplify, but I have seemn this literally 100's of times, and it has been stock screws not tight or a bit of a void in the bedding, 90% of the time. I would really see to it that my stock screws were really tight. I like around 65 ft/lbs. If you've already explored that, then I would be checking my bases rings scope. A worn throat is/may just gonna cause general inaccuracy over time, but when you tend to get patterns, it is usually something more mechanical IME. With 3 shot groups, the one fellow who posted that the problem is no problem may be exactly right. I'd be shooting several different 5 shot groups at different spots, and making careful notes about the order of each 5 shot group and where the impacts came in order to help clarify. Good Luck! | |||
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I had this very same problem today at the range. Shooting 3 shot groups and there always seemed to be a flier. THe flier was always inconsistent too. Sometimes the first shot, sometimes the second and sometimes the third. There would always be two either touching or almost. Checked the stock screws and the screw in front of the magazine chamber was in fact loose about 1/3rd or 1/4 of a turn, or so. So, would you trust the two shots that were touching, or load up again and shoot some more? Graybird "Make no mistake, it's not revenge he's after ... it's the reckoning." | |||
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