There is some discussion going on in our neighbouring country Germany. A police officer shot some full copper bullets on a paper target at about 27 yards and one bullet ricocheted back to the entrance door beside that officer and penetrated that door.
Some accidents were reported in the field. A hunter was seriously hit standing about 90 degrees aside from the trajectory when an animal was shot by a full copper bullet. A Barnes bullet glanced off or ricocheted inside the animal when a hunter tried to finish off a wild boar with a second shot and killed another hunter who was standing in a believed very safe position to the bullet path.

In the German State of Brandenburg lead containing bullets were prohibited because sea eagles were found dead by lead poisoning. The cause was they preyed on (poached and) not found dead animals, shot by lead containing bullets. But after these incidents the Germans postponed that decision, for the time being new investigations will make clear copper (or equivalent) bullets might be more dangerous than the conventional ones (with lead).

What are your experiences with glancing off or ricocheting the (T)TSX, other full coppers or bullets that retain their weight (after hitting) of more than, say, 80%? Did you ever hear these bullets ricocheted more than 90 degrees or even back to the shooter? Do you know of deadly (human) accidents? Do we have to take these investigations seriously?

Thanks for input.
Nice day,
Jan

Interesting stories. I've heard nothing like that here in the US but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened. I use only Barnes TSX and TTSX bullets in the three cartridges I load for. The '06 180 grain are the slowest of the three that I fire. I've never had a ricochet even hitting rocks at less then perpendicular. I shoot the 100 grain TSX from the 257 Wby. Both the TSX and TTSX in 168 and 180 grains from the '06. Also the X, TSX and TTSX in 225 grain for my 338-378 Wby. Slow or fast, I've never had one "bounce" off of anything .

Ken....

It is conceivable that a petal can break off and go astray in a perpendicular direction.....

I've never heard of any injuries due to such an event however.

Did you ever hear the one about fish getting trapped in plastic six-pack holders? Sounds like a similar-source deal.
.

I'll believe the ricochet. No one should be firing ANY sort of high powered rifle at a solid backstop at 30 yards. That's asking for trouble.

The 90 degree deflections are harder to swallow: it seems to violate the laws of physics.

Copper bullets WILL out-penetrate most any other deforming bullets, and what was a "safe" position is not necessarily a safe position with these new bullets. That's not a knock on the bullets, that's a knock on the operator.... JMO, Dutch.

Speaking of ricochets check this one out. 50 BMG

Last season my buddy took a neck shot on a buck , I was closer to the deer , and even though its neck and spine were blown to pieces the deer was standing up .

I made a follow up shot with my .308 , 150g tsx factory load . Deer was about 90 yds , pretty much broadside and my shot was textbook vitals , there was no exit wound , part of the bullet was found in one of the rear quarters and completely destroying the rear hip joint .

Bullets can do funny things .If I can find the bullet frag ill weigh it and post .

quote:

Originally posted by Dutch:
No one should be firing ANY sort of high powered rifle at a solid backstop at 30 yards.

The ricochet encountered on the Police shooting range involved a mono-metal handgun bullet. No rifles were involved in this incidence.

Another incidence has been quoted, where a mono-metal rifle bullet (not sure of the brand, or if that matters) made some pretty incredible ricochets off trees in impossible angles (90 degrees etc). Since I don't know of the exact details, it is hard to say it was impossible and that shooters were at fault, but on the surface it sure sounds incredible.

The long and the short of it all, is that the State Forestry Commision in the German state of Brandenburg has now reversed their decision to allow only lead-free bullets on their lands. Now lead free bullets are banned until further technical investigation has been undertaken (presumably by DEVA - or some such organization?). In all honesty, the decision by the State Forestry Commision is probably more one of protecting their own ass, *should* an accident with mono-metal bullets occur.

On the technical side, it is hard to know what the outcome of this will be? Will it be possible to show an increased risk of richochets with mono-metal bullets?? Time will tell. For now, it looks like the (inevitable?) path to a requirement for lead-free ammunition has been (temporarily?) stopped. That is a good thing.

- mike

quote:

Originally posted by Jan:
...What are your experiences with glancing off or ricocheting the (T)TSX, other full coppers or bullets that retain their weight (after hitting) of more than, say, 80%? Did you ever hear these bullets ricocheted more than 90 degrees or even back to the shooter? ...

Hey Jan, Back around 25-30 years ago I was in Raleigh, NC visiting a buddy. We had gone to his Range to do some rifle shooting and had just finished up. Off in the distance we could hear some rapid pistol fire and it was some kind of Match going on. They drew their pistols, shot at "metal" Targets at varying distances, changed magazines, and continued moving down the line and firing.

We got all our stuff loaded up and went to do a bit of spectating. As we walked up, there was some announcement about "The Line is Hot" and then nothing happened. We noticed some folks staring at us, but we were behind the Firing Line standing next to some bleachers.

Finally a guy walks up and asks us to walk back a bit with him. Once we got "behind" the bleachers, the firing began. He tells us there were a good number of Bullets sent straight back from those Metal Targets and even the people in the bleachers watching needed to be wearing Shooting Glasses.

We thanked the guy and went back to the truck. I do not know if they were using Lead, Jacketed Exposed Lead or FMJ, but they were not using solid Copper Bullets back then. Don't know if they are still shooting at the Metal Targets or not. But they had experienced enough Bullets coming backwards that they were taking precautions about it even then.

Any bullet of any construction has the potential to ricochet.

There was a work party at our club and we were to replace the tin roof on the indoor pistol range. There must have been 150 lead bullets of different calibers up there. When I asked how, the Pres, told me in the winter they ricochet off the frozen burm then up and over.

Just goes to show we sometimes forget these simple things and they come back to get us.

A fellow here had a pistol bullet ricochet back from a swinging target he was shooting at and hit him in the hand hard enough to require stitches. Luckily he was a doctor so the incident never got into the report system.

And in the FWIW dept: back when coyote hides were worth something, I fooled around with a yote for what seemed like 30 minutes to get a shot at him longwise (I was shooting a 22-250) so I wouldn't have to do any or very much sewing. I hit him dead center (more or less) in the chest facing on and the bullet hit the sternum or scapula or something and turned and made a hole between his shoulder blades you could drop a softball thru. ???

quote:

There is some discussion going on in our neighbour country Germany. A police officer shot some full copper bullets on a paper target at about 27 yards and one bullet ricocheted back to the entrance door beside that officer and penetrated that door.
Some accidents were reported in the field. A hunter was seriously hit standing about 90 degrees aside from the trajectory when an animal was shot by a full copper bullet. A Barnes bullet glanced off or ricocheted inside the animal when a hunter tried to finish off a wild boar with a second shot and killed another hunter who was standing in a believed very safe position to the bullet path.

While not common, ricochets can and do happen with all bullets. I know a young man living near me who will forever be in a wheel chair because his brother shot a .22 at an animal IN THE OPPOSITE direction of where they were standing, apparently hit a wheel rim, ricocheted 180 degrees and hit the victim.

quote:

Originally posted by MERCULA:
Last season my buddy took a neck shot on a buck , I was closer to the deer , and even though its neck and spine were blown to pieces the deer was standing up .

I made a follow up shot with my .308 , 150g tsx factory load . Deer was about 90 yds , pretty much broadside and my shot was textbook vitals , there was no exit wound , part of the bullet was found in one of the rear quarters and completely destroying the rear hip joint .

Bullets can do funny things .If I can find the bullet frag ill weigh it and post .

I dunno about your shot, but I'm calling on any deer "standing up" with the spinein the neck "blown to pieces". Can't happen unless he's leaning against a tree.

The 22lr is probably the most notorious for deflections.I had a 22lr roundnose kill a 'chuck and deflect 45 degrees and exit.Pres Reagan was hit with a 22 going into the chest cavity ,bouncing off a rib and puncturing the lung.Bullets can do strange things !

While I appreciate you calling BS on my story , it happened . You could fit your hand through the hole .
Ill see if I can find pics of his neck , 300WM 120yds(approx) 150 balistic tip .
We couldnt believe he was doing anything after we saw the mess ,we couldnt find any bone or nerves still connected around his spine .
I guess there had to be or he really wouldnt have moved at all . My shot had to have deflected on shoulder somewhere .

My guess is that that the reason why these ricochets with cooper rifle bullets are not reported more from the US is that you don't do a lot of driven rifle hunts with very little distance between shooters. Most if not all ricochets might thus and fortunately just go unnoticed.

about 20 years ago i had a 180 np at an impact vel. of 2800fps or so hit a mule deer in the rib cage, do a 90 degree turn and exit at the top of the shoulder. it didn't break the rib or penetrate the rib cage. had to shoot him again. these unexplainable ricochets aren't limited to the mono-metal projectiles.

Barnes X and others like it have been known to be banned in Poland at driven hunts,

I have a friend to took part of a hunt in poland, he shot a boar within the safe shooting angle, a part of the FBBC he used in his 300 Win mag deflected on the open frozen ground and came to hit one of the drivers in the chest,

took him 5 days to be accqiutted and released from jail, he was under suspicion of shooting out of bounds and thereby by negleck hurting the driver.

Steps have been made to prevent this in the future.

No it´s not only Barnes x TSX or BTSX that do this it´s just that they do seem more prone to hold together hence the fly off instead of breaking up.

Best regards Chris

quote:

Originally posted by DUK:
My guess is that that the reason why these ricochets with cooper rifle bullets are not reported more from the US is that you don't do a lot of driven rifle hunts with very little distance between shooters. Most if not all ricochets might thus and fortunately just go unnoticed.

I think that sums it up. We tend to hunt singly, not in groups. The exception are some Yankee states where they turn out several hundred hunters on public land for a week or two. Much of it is shotgun-only so the chance of richochet injuries are less than with high power rifles.

Ricochets with handguns are common and in all angles including 180 degrees. Hard-cast auto pistol lead bullets are notorious for this.

Bullets turn inside the animals more frequently than one thinks. Below is the caption and two pictures from the description of two such incidents.

With such a variety of calibers and ammunition used, interesting things are seen. Below are two carcasses shot with 150gr, unbonded core, jacketed lead bullets from a 270. The first was shot side on and the shot was fired from the same level that the springbuck was on. The bullet entered in the yellow square and exited roughly in the direction of the arrow. I have seen this happen before but not twice on the same hunt. The second shot was a quarter going away and entered low on the rib cage, in line with the heart. It turned and exited through the spine, before entering the thoracic cavity. The meat damage was substantial with bloodshot meat extending along the spine from the top of the neck almost to the back legs.

All kinds of strange stuff can happen with ricochets. A few examples.

1. One of the hospitals in our chain is a major SW trauma enter. Doctors there were asked "What is the most deadly pistol round, in your ER and "in-patient" experiences"? The agreed answer was the .22 rimfire. Why? Because after entering the body they seem to go danged near anywhere, following the line of least resistance. That least resistance is often along the inside of a major vein, artery, or tissue separating two or more major muscles. And, that whole path is subject to infection. As just one example, a patient shot in the chest with a .22 - the bullet ended up oin his left leg, in the femoral artery. Hace mucho malo!

2. I was a range officer at a "Regional Glock Match" of the GSSF. At the "5 for Glock" event, I was taking a break, sitting at a picnic table about 20 yards directly behind the firing line. One shooter fires, and I see a bullet coming directly for me. It was not moving fast enough to break my skin, ut it was too fast to dodge. Hit me in the arm. Had gone through the paper target, bounced off off a berm (with over 1 foot of sand completely covering the berm). and came pretty much straight back.

3. Was a Sheriff's Deputy in California in my youth. Shot at a car one time. Bullet came back and cut a small wafer from my left ear. Guess who never shot at a car again?

Have had several other "data-gathering" experiences with ricochets. Maybe this should not be taken with much concern by others, but I personally am convinced shooting has some degree of danger, regardless how much care we take with it. As an adult I choose to live with that and accept it as part of the sport, but that doesn't make it go away completely.

The name for this effect is "flipper", on the police i have see one people:
The shot entrace in leg and exit in harm.

You want to hear about ricochets ask any serviceman in a fire fight in Iraq.

Perry

Here is a video clip showing a guy shooting his earmuffs off with a 50 bmg bolt action rifle.
You can hear the different angles bullet takes prior to hitting the "operator"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ABGIJwiGBc

I was shooting a steel target at 50yds a couple of years ago with an MP5 & had most of a copper jacket come back & hit me just under my glasses with enough force to draw blood.
Ensures I always wear glasses at the range.

Gerard can probably expand on this, but one of the reasons, I suspect, that copper bullets veer off trajectory may be that they tend to be longer, and are therefore less stable (more likely to tumble).

I'm convinced shorter (i.e. lighter) bullets in any caliber, given a fixed rate of twist, behave far more predictably after impacting the animal. FWIW, Dutch.

Thank you a lot for your comments folks, it is really very interesting and instructive. There is a significant difference between handguns and rifles, and for the latter: be careful on driven hunts as the Germans often do. Be it with softpoints or full copper bullets.
As an outdoorwriter in Holland I will mention your comments and underline to be very careful when hunting with other people around. Your luck in hitting an animal correctly can can turn out in disaster at supersonic velocity!

Nice day,
Jan

I have shot the old Barnes X bullets through a Coyote and it hit a rock and completly smurfed on it.The animal was about 70 yds away.It was a 6MM -85 gr. X-bullet.In Germany a lot of hunting is done with Drivers and people on stand.A situation looking for a mortality.