280AI,..easy to form,...easy to load,...and super accurate, not to mention some impressive speed for that case family.

Smknbarrel,
I have 2 .257AI's, and 2 22/250AI's and love them all. I am having a .250AI presently being built(Jim White) on a Commercial FN action that I am looking forward to.
Sierra uses this chambering to accuracy test their 25 caliber bullets. It is used daily for this testing.They report excellent barrel life.
Sierra makes a 75gr.HP,87gr.Spitzer,90gr.HPBT(excellent deer bullet),100gr.Spitzer, 100gr.SBT,100gr.HPBT Matchking,
117gr.SBT,117gr.SPT,120gr.HPBT. That's 9 bullets! A bullet for any occasion. In Sierra's data(ultra conservative) they show a 75gr.HP@ 3600fps, 90gr.HPBT@ 3400. I hope this sheds some light on your question.
Stepchild

So called "improved" chambers are nothing but extra work with few benefits.



The least user friendly so called "improved" chamber may be the 219 "I" Zipper. The amount of metal removed from the chamber is so great that much of the available brass splits at the shoulder upon firing. Remington brass will not survive at all and about half of the Winchester brass survives. Puting oil on each case before firing them helps a lot. I used to be able to size down 30-30 brass but the last lot is too soft and it collapses. Of course a set of form dies should work. The latest is that 225 Winchester brass will work with the necks turned. They are quite a bit smaller in capacity so new loads need to be worked up.



Another useless cartridge is the .375 H&H "I". The problem with this one is the same as all belted cartridges but in spades as the web really takes a beating on the first shot as the shoulder and body is blown way out. At least rimless "I" chambers that are done right do not weaken the web. On top of that my chamber has some freebore so the only bullet that will reach the lands is a 285 Speer flat base seated backwards. Keep in mind that when you need brass you have to shoot off 20 285's backwards just to get cases. I suppose you could pay someone to do this or buy basic brass if that would form up.



The 30-06 "I" that I have was done right so it's easy to just fire off any factory rounds in it. There is no improvement however in performance. At least the rifle still shot well afterwards. I got a FL die for that one in a trade so it's not a big problem like the others.



From another point of view the so called "improved" cartridges don't cost all that much compared to stuff like boats or Corvettes. Everyone should own one to find out.

Leave it to Don to throw a wet blanket on any discussion he gets involved in. I think he's a candidate for the "ignore" button.

I really like the .223 AI I had built recently. Shooting max loaded .223 in the chamber forms them perfectly and gives me 1/2 MOA shooting. Heck, I don't care if I never get all my brass fireformed if it keeps shooting like this. Shot a herd of Rock Chucks last weekend and I love this thing. Unlike my 22-250, I can watch the .223 hit targets through the scope. Nothing quite like it.
My other AI cartridges have been so-so in likability, but my 300 H&H AI has also been a terrific performer. It is basically a 300 Weatherby. The accuracy of both my AI models has also been excellent, both simple rechamber jobs. I'm thinking one on a new barrel with a new chamber might be even better.
Many AI's don't produce sufficient gains to be worth the effort, but many of them can be a serious upgrade in performance. So many things to try and so little time. Good thing I'm planning to live another 100 years so I can try every new thing that has come out in the last 100 years. - Sheister

PS- I have a set of Redding 250 Ackley Improved dies that I got in a deal for a barrel if anyone is interested. Hardly used.

I don't think that Don said anything untrue. The .30-06 Improved really is a waste. You gain nothing in the conversion but use more powder, add recoil and gunsmithing costs. There are some cartridges that realize little or no gain from the conversion. He mentioned some.

There are some however that really benefit from improvement.

The "K" Hornet for example. The gains in case life alone are worth the trouble. It would get my vote for most improved.

I wouldn't say that ALL improved cartridges are nothing but extra work with few benefits. But some surely are.

Sheister,
I would be interested in the 250 Ackley dies. Send me an e-mail with the price and a mailing address to:
Stepchild61@hotmail.com
Thanks,
Dennis
PS I agree with your comment about Salvage 9.9, but you were a little too kind.

Stepchild
E-mail sent. Thanks

z1r,
"The gains in case life alone are worth the trouble"
That's the way I feel about any of St.Parkers creations. They are worth the trouble just for the increased case life to me. The increased performance regardless of how small is just an added bonus. Jim

zlr,
Everything that salvage 9.9 has to say about any Ackley Improved is negative, regardless of the bore size or chambering. And while i'll concede that some of Parker Ackley's chamberings were not that much of an improvement over the parent cartridge as far as velocity is concerned, there are other things to consider such as case life and efficiency.
If you have had the opportunity to feast on Parker's handbooks you would know that he gave an accurate assesment of it's merits or lack there of. Parker Ackley was light years ahead of his time.
Savage 9.9 is an axxhole, pure and simple. I know from his posts that he has ZERO experience when it comes to Ackley Improved cartridges.
Stepchild

Sheister,
Try again, nothing came through.
Dennis

If Die availability for Forster is the measure, then 257 Roberts Ackley Improved and 30-06 Ackley are the best.

http://www.forsterproducts.com/Pages/dies_order.htm


The rifle calibers I reload for: .222, .223, .243 Win, 257 Roberts AI, 6.5 jap, 6.5x55, 7x57mm, 30-30, 303Sav, .308, 30-06, 7.5 French, 7.5 Swiss, 7.62x39mm, 303Brit, 7.62x54R, 8x57mm, 44 mag, 45 acp, 45 Colt, and 45/70.

My best rifle is my only Ackley caliber, but that is coincidence, and I consider fire forming and magazine feeding of 40 degree shoulders to be a major pain in the a**.

My advice to anyone would to be to get a .223Rem and have some fun, while avoiding any Ackley calibers.

--
A society that teaches evolution as fact will breed a generation of atheists that will destroy the society. It is Darwinian.

e-mail resent. Let me know if you don't get it and I'll PM you instead if necessary.

Thanks, Bob

Jim,

Excellent. That's why I suppose we have so many options. If you are lucky enough to shoot so frequently that the extra inital effort gives you greater case life then I envy you. These days I feel lucky just to be able to shoot, lol.

Stepchild,

Not wanting to insert myself into an obviously personal fight, Savage99 did have some valid points depending on your expectations. If added velocity is the goal then the .30-06 improved is not one of those rounds that realizes much, if any, benefit from improvment. If added case life is your goal then, on the other hand, maybe it is.

As I recall Ackley himself stated that not all of his creations realized any real gains. All a matter of perspective I suppose.

Clark,
I look at fireforming as a labor of love. I've killed Deer and Antelope while fireforming brass, no cream of wheat here.
I don't have any feeding issues either, I have a 22/250 Ackley Improved built on a 1908 Brazilian action that feeds these 40 degree cases like it was made for it, with zero work done to the feed rails. This one averages 3,998(55gr) fireforming, very much worth it in my book.
Stepchild

z1r,
I am very fortunate in the fact that I can step out of my shop and step to the line. I live on and operate a rifle range in Prescott, AZ. Jim

Sounds like I should drive there from LA sometime. Do you ever have any silhouette shooters out there?

stepchild2:

Quote: "Savage 9.9 is an axxhole, pure and simple." Is this because he has a different opinion than yours?

Frankly anyone who tells me that they have had no difficulty with 40d shouldered cases feeding tells me that THEY have had little experience.

I've never seen a board like this in my life. There is some info to be gained but I don't like places where one get flamed so badly for expressing an opinion. Savage 99 does have experience with Ackley chamberings. He is at a point in life where his opionion is that if you wnat a better round than what you have it is easier and generally more pleasant to buy a factory chambered cartridge that has what it is that you want and feel you need. I've had it with some of the idiots on this board. Stepchild2--look in the mirror.

knobmtn

knobmtn,

Maybe it is you who should look in the mirror. If you look at the heading of this thread, it doesn't ask for an opinion of Ackley cartridges, just what one would you consider most user friendly.
Savage99 continually comments negatively on most any thread with very little positive to add to any thread. Through a long period of reading his inane comments it has been fairly easy to tell his experience with hunting, and Ackley cartridges is very limited. However, he has made it a crusade to post on every thread that mentions Ackley cartridges, and run them down every chance he gets. He was also on a crusade against Remington rifles for awhile. I wonder what his next crusade will be?
You must be a friend of his, or you wouldn't be so quick to jump in without some background on his behavior on these and other boards. Personally, I think he could have something to offer on these board, but his negative attitude and lack of experience on subjects he posts on frequently are irritating at the least.
Now, stating that anyone who hasn't had problems feeding with 40 degree cases lacks experience- that is the pot calling the kettle black isn't it. And what do you base this magnanimous opinion of yours on and how do you know how much experience any of us has?
Just for your perusal, I've owned at least 4 Ackley'd rifles and never had one with feeding problems. No aversion to Ackley's creations in this corner!- Sheister

knobmtn,
I think Sheister pretty much summed it up. I have had the pleasure of using some of Parker Ackley's finest since the early 70's and owning an Oehler chronograph I'm here to tell you that they flat perform. And salvage9.9 doesn't have a clue as to what's happening in the real world. In one of his posts he badmouthed the excellent .257 Roberts, that is something that a person with any experience with the above would never do. I witnessed Jim White kill a bull Elk with a lowly .257 Roberts and that was one shot and one very dead Elk.salvage says in his earlier posts that a .257 Roberts is not suitable for whitetail deer. A friend of his(if you can believe that) dropped a deer in it's tracks with one shot but had the gall to degrade the excellent .257 ROBERTS as not being suitable as a deer cartridge. HOGWASH.
And about Ackley cartridges having feeding problems, the only one that I have that could have anything closely related to a feeding problem is a 700 Remington LA that was originally a 30/06 has a bit of a hitch when the case comes out of the magazine and starts into the chamber, it catches slightly and I have to pull the bolt back about a 1/4" and then in it goes. Not really a problem for me as this is not my go to grizley rifle. The other 3 feed like snot on a door knob, including the 98 Mauser mentioned earlier.
I think it was JBelk that told salvage 9.9 that he had been in the "Dummy Worms" referring to one of his ignorant posts.
I see your in Pennsylvania, I live in NE lower Michigan, load your tent and your family and come on up and i'll show you this ain't chin music.
Stepchild

z1r,

No we don't shoot silhouette here. This range is on USFS land and with the proximity to our closest neighbors(50 feet outside our fence line) it's just not a good idea. There is not a safety issue here it's just that when some of the neighbors hear what they percieve to be a ricochet they are on the phone complaining to whomever will listen to them. In an effort to be "good neighbors" we have decided not to cause any more irritation than is absolutely necessary. I hate to concede anything to the anti-gunners in this world but I am only one voice on the Board of Directors here. If you ever get over Prescott way, stop by and say hello. Be glad to have you. Jim

"I've never seen a board like this in my life. There is some info to be gained but I don't like places where one get flamed so badly for expressing an opinion"

If you don't like to see people get flamed for expressing an opinion why do you defend savage99? All you have to do is say something positive about Parker Ackley and 99 starts his rhetoric about how bad anything that is Ackley Improved is. And anybody that can't make a cartridge feed just because the body taper is changed and the shoulder angle is sharpened to 40 degrees started with the wrong sized action to begin with.

"I've had it with some of the idiots on this board"

All I can suggest is that you stay off this board! However I don't see what your problem is. You've proved that you are an idiot also so it seems that you fit in real well!

that is funny,..all my ackleys feed from unaltered factory 700rem boxes,..and enter the chamber with authority. Must be my gunsmith knows his shit,..or maybe I have a gift??.

Ackley is/was the man. His data and especially his knowledge of balistics was,..as stated, way ahead of it's time. I guess the nay sayers are against weatherby calibers as well? kind of an ackley,..but with an unwarranted price tag. 40 degree works better than a radiused shoulder in any barrel I have ever turned into a tomato stake. But then,..weatherby chamfored his barrels to allow the feeding of that case,...HMMMMMM??? would have been easier to just use the slow shoulder,...unless he thought/knew he was on to something with it

The only Ackley cartridge I load for is the .257 Roberts improved. Its easy to fireform brass, the case life is very long and they hardly stretch. My rifle has a 22" barrel and the velocity is impessive. I don't know what the percentage of increase over the standard Roberts is, but I find the AI version is real easy to deal with.

Scheister and Stepchild2,

Your juvenile like profanity has always made me laugh at you. I know for sure that I have won the argument when you resort to the last refuge of a conversational cripple.

If you had anything to debate me with perhaps you would say it. It's been obvious all along that you cannot.

Sheister, Srepchild2, Jim White:

I was defending Savage99's right to express an opinion without being flamed so badly. I was not definding Savage99. Apparently I've stumbled into some kind of of feud. Sorry about that. I'll always defend free speech but I've got no interest in fight someone else's private war.

knobmtn

Knobmtn,
Savage 99 has posted some interesting and useful information on many occasions here. But when it comes to Parker Ackley Mr. Martin doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground. His last response to Stepchild and Sheister is a good example. It's like arguing with a child when it comes to Ackley for Christs sake. It's not good enough to say that some of Ackley's creations are not very improved over the parent cartridge and not worth doing with the exception of greatly increased case life. No, No Mr. Martin has to bad mouth them all. Well bullshit to you Don Martin. And now you can add me to your list of the profane and I will consider myself to be in good company along with Stepchild and Sheister. And just because you pick up your marbles and go home doesn't mean you won the argument. Jim

Don,

So it's a debate you want? Hey, I'm up for it any day you are but let's get something straight. I don't believe in being politically correct to protect your fragile feelings, and I reserve the right to call Bullshit every time you post something you know nothing about.
Your silly crusade on 24hourcampfire and here about Remington rifles, and now Ackley Improved cartridges is beyond defense. If you had enough background in anything besides target shooting, you might be able to contribute something to many of these threads. However, your constant "my friend said this", and "I don't own one, but I think" just doesnt' cut it when someone is asking for factual information. Your "facts" are usually hearsay and third hand opinion, which is worse than worthless.

Sometime, if you have something positive to contribute maybe you will gain a bit more respect. Your background in long range shooting may give you some credibility in that arena and may be interesting to hear about. However, it doesn't give you credibility across the board, since you have admitted to having limited experience hunting and with other pursuits.

Now, as to being rude, as you often accuse many of us after calling you on some of your usual BS- do you even look at the heading of the thread you are posting to before you post? The heading of this thread is "Most User Friendly Ackley Improved Caliber". I don't remember anyone asking your opinion of the usefulness of Ackley cartridges. But of course, your negative approach to every response you post seems to get the best of you. It isn't your place (or anyone else's) to tell somebody they shouldn't do something they would like to do, no matter how useless you feel it is.

Try using a positive attitude and not posting to the threads in which you don't have any experience and you would probably come off as more thoughtful, intelligent, and wise. As is, you simply come off as childish, negative, and looking for some kind of attention.

I look forward to your response.- Sheister

Sheister, Jim White and a few others,



What I have posted on this topic and in past ones about any subject has been both factual and opinion based on common sense. Sometimes I use theory or mathematics as well. This is the normal way we communicate.



When something is wrong or not up to other standards most of us speak up. In this topic which asked about the most user friendly improved cartridges it's quite appropiate to mention those to stay away from. This is what I did.



When one considers that no improved cartridge has ever seen the light of day as a commercial offering it's obvious that they are just rock climbing. Not to knock rock climbing or improved cartridges but just to say that they are more a pastime than any benefit.



Of course if a conventional chamber is not done right then setting the barrel back and cutting a round chamber with the proper headspace should correct those problems. Anytime there is something wrong and a skilled metalsmith gets at it then correction of the problem is expected. To credit the shape of the reamer with this is not scientific.



Remington rifles deserve what the have today. The Remington 700 and 722 series were a very good design for the day. The competition (M70) was made by expensive means and it was an expensive design to make by any means. The Remington design was easy to make square and true. It came on scene just when Sierra Bullets started up and the first top quality bullets were available over the counter.



Since that time the Remington design was not improved but has gone backwards. The Walker trigger should have been changed long ago. This is the fault of the Remington people and not the Remingon rifle. I did join in with Jack Belk when he trashed the Walker trigger. In this I regret joining such company, not because Belk is right or wrong but because of some of his subsequent actions. I do hope however that Jack comes back and makes it all right. I can sift the wheat from the chafe and that' why I have so many friends.



To those who have little content in them and take the low road with insults and profanity I say that your not only wrong but you lose.



As to just some of my background I got my handloading instruction, in part, from Lysle Kilborn who was an employee of the Lyman Gunsite who's owners and founders who we are close to. Lysle as you know was the first to cut improved chambers. Thus the K-Hornet.



I got my first improved cartridge in 1961 and I still have it and shoot it. It's the 219 Improved Zipper that I mentioned above. If you reread that part of my previous post you will see that I know quite a bit about the cartridge and have been up and down the flag plole with it. I bought that rifle used just for the rifle. High Walls were very hard to get, and still are, and I was young and inexperianced. Today if I were to have that fine old rifle rechambered it would be for the .225 Winchester to avoid having to make cases and being able to at least find factory ammo.



I enjoy the arguments and have both the strong mind, energy, time and resources to keep it up. Why not come up here with me on the high road and lets all learn from each other?



"When you resort to attacking the messanger and not the message, you have lost the debate."

When I posted this topic I did not expect WWIII but apparently that is what I have got. Ackley Improved cartridges have a permanent place in the hands of skilled & experienced reloaders and gunsmiths. I simply need a little help as to which one I should choose. It is completely understood that they do require more dedication than other factory cartridges. THAT'S HALF THE FUN!! I got into reloading to make each cartridge my own, so that I could personally know how it will perform every time I pull the trigger. Ackley Improved--- Time consuming? Yes. Enjoyable? MOST CERTAINLY!

P.S. No one take any offense to this as that is not what it is intended for!

Smknbarrel,

So tell us then which have you decided on???

The improved rimless cartridges that show the most capacity gain are those, of course, with the smallest bores. Then one does get close to bore capacity but I always wondered why a 270 Winchester Improved was not more popular?



I just looked at one internal program that I have and it shows a 0.7 gr increase in water capacity between the two.



This program has to be wrong on that data.

The two most user friendly AI cartridges, IMHO, are the 223AI and the 300 H&H Improved, which is basically the 300 Weatherby without the double radius shoulder. Both of them give you substantial gains over the original in velocity, adequate feeding, and can easily and accurately shoot factory ammo as long as you like.

Many wildcat cartridges have become factory offerings, the 25-06 being one of the most common in use today. The fact that Ackley offerings haven't been adopted by the factories has more to do with mere chance than the quality or intrinsic problems with these fine cartridges. This discussion could easily go into why certain cartridges have been adopted and others not- while many other fine cartridges have been dropped over the years. But the fact is this thread is about the enjoyment of fine and unusual cartridges that are worth the small amount of extra effort to use.
Each to his own. - Sheister

Sheister,

Good post.

How do you find the web's in your 300 Ackley in terms of insipiant head separations? My 375 does not do well at all and there is an immediate weakening and thining there.

I have fire formed some using bullets seated to the lands but that's not a good hunting round and just a waste of bullets.

I am just going to throw the brass out after a couple of reloads.

More than likely Iwill either look into the .250 AI or the .257 AI as the seem near perfect for the whitetails & coyotes taken at long range. Any opinions on the.25 cal, 90 grain Lost River Ballistic Technology Bullet?

Smkn:
While this doesn't directly answer your question, I thought I'd kick in my 2 cents anyway. The only AI cartridge I've ever owned or shot is my .257 Imp. It's a completely rebuilt Ruger with the only thing original being the wood stock (hate fiberglass) and the receiver. The barrel is a 24" Kreiger & they also blueprinted the action. A local smith glass bedded the action & installed a Canjar set trigger. The rifle is topped off with a Leupold VX - III, 4.5 - 14 Tactical w/ mil dots.
Once I figured out the proper way to fireform cases, it's a snap. I was new at this, BTW. This rifle, with 75 gr. V-max bullets & IMR-4895 will often shoot slightly less than 0.4" groups for 3 shots when I do my part. As I recall, the velocity I'm getting with that bullet is in the vacinity of 3350 fps, (got it written down somewhere). I have had no feeding problems whatsoever with this.

I don't know about other Ackley chamberings, but I do know that for me, this is one sweet chambering & I don't care what anyone says. Hope this helps a bit. Bear in Fairbanks

Thanks Bear! I was considering buying a Bullberry Barrel in one of the two calibers. I've shot Bullberrys before in 222 Match and it was a tack driver!

Based on my own experience I would pick the 280 AI. Using a 140gr or lighter bullet, the 280 AI match's a 7mm mag, both using a 24" barrel, with less powder I might add. I have a 7mm mag and have for some 20 years. We all know hind sight is 20-20. Looking back I would of been better off with the 280 AI versus the 7mm mag since I "personally" would never use a bullet heavier then 140gr in either.

I don't understand the "more work" part some have mentioned. I fire form the brass and continue just like I would if the cartridge where not AI. One down side I can think of off the top of my head is: I have never been able to "bump" the shoulder back on a 40 deg case without damaging the case. I guess that could be a negative. I have 2 cartridges that I use that have a 40 deg shoulder. One is the 22 CHeetah MK 1 and the other is the 375 H&H AI. A buddy has 2 rifle that are chambered for 280 AI and after running his loads and mine out of the 7mm mag, using the same 127gr EXP Groove Bullets, his wins.

Don

Smknbarrel,

You didn't mention where the void in your current rifle battery lies. If you're looking for a particular caliber to fit between existing cartridges in your lineup, knowing that would be helpful. As far as being the most "user friendly", I'm not sure I quite understand what you're really looking for. All require fireforming, but it's a pretty straight forward proposition to install a standard cartridge in an improved chamber. If the chamber was reamed properly, that's all that's really necessary, although many of us also seat bullets hard into the lands or open up the case mouth and size the neck down gradually to a slight crush fit.

As for practical gains in velocity, most don't set the world on fire, except for maybe the 250 Savage or 257 Roberts. As mentioned above, there are other positive aspects to an improved chamber: improved case life, more positive headspacing, reduced bolt thrust, the ability to load to slightly higher pressures safely and the modest increase in velocity due to that, and the resultant sexy looking cartridge.

Most Ackley cartridges seem to work best with the slower powders listed for the parent cartridge, since one can stuff just a little more of it in the case. For example, my 7-08AI shoots very accurately with IMR 4350 and IMR 4831. I had difficulty getting enough of those powders into the standard 7-08 case to achieve the velocity I'd prefer. The loads were low pressure, but there just wasn't any more room in the case. The Ackley version solves that problem. I get over 3000fps from a 22" barrel and very good accuracy with 139-140gr bullets. That's more than I can safely get from the standard 7-08 with a 24" barrel. I didn't simply rechamber my 7-08 to the improved chamber. I don't believe the gains would have been worth the cost to still have a factory barrel when I was done. My 7-08AI is a custom rifle, and it didn't cost any more to chamber it with the improved reamer than a standard one. Granted, the dies cost slightly more, but I can live with that. I'd like to also add that my cartridges feed beautifully from a standard Sako 591 action with no modifications to the feed rails. My 20BR also needed no work to the Remington 700 feed rails, and it not only has a shallow case taper with the steep shoulder angle, it's a very stubby cartridge, to boot. This is not to say that some folks don't need their feed rails reworked. I've just been fortunate there.

Now, to answer your questions specifically:
As far as being economical, starting with a parent case that's affordable and readily obtainable is all that's important there. All Ackley cartridges are as easy to reload for as their parent cartridge. Bullet selection has nothing to do with chamber configuration, but everything to do with caliber. What do you really want?

Don,

Since this is a hunting rifle, I don't shoot it all that much except to work up loads and check sight-in before the season. This Pre 64 Model 70 was unmarked when I got it, so I just loaded up some 300 H&H brass I had with a near max load and some Sierra 168 HPBT bullets. My son was sighting it in and the groups were in the .3's and .4's. I was pretty amazed, but even more so once I saw the brass coming out of the chamber and immediately realized what had happened. It now shoots 180 Noslers into approximately .7" for it's Ackley hunting load and works just fine, feeds perfectly, and never have a problem with it except that it is heavy to carry. The original stock has lost all it's finish from hunting in rain and snow, so it is about to get restocked, possibly in a McMillan.
Some of my brass has approximately 4 firings on it, and I've had no more separation problem than with any of my other belted magnums. Since this rifle is a loaner rifle at the moment, I'm not too worried about it. It appears the chamber was cut by somebody who knew what he was doing.