A friend of mine is playing with his Sako TRG .300WM and has acquired a bunch of .224/.308 sabots. In the interests of seeing how much outside the box he can go, he'd like to discover athow large a fraction of "c" he can pursuade a 50 or 55 grain .224 projectile to leave the barrel.

Does anyone on this forum have experience with these sabots that might be useful, or a load for this case/sabot/projectile combination which would make a good starting point.

With thanks......... Cooch

I didn't hear too many good things about Sabots used for what you are trying to do. Accuracy is all over the place with them. They are good for shotgun slugs that's about it.

Frank D

You know Sabots work great in all kinds of applications. Look at the M1 tanks. Those sabots they shoot are damn accurate. I would say if they put more time and development into sabots for rifles, they would be a hit. Like the shotgun sabot.

The M-1A-2 Abrams shoots a depleated Uranium Dart. They have a computer controlled turret and gun. They shoot and hit things 3 miles out. Well thats the military and a 120mm smooth bore gun. You want to shoot 22 bullets, simple buy a 22! Remington for some years had sabot loadings in .30-06 and 308 win. Make your deer rifle a 22 to shoot woodchucks and such. I don't see that suff around any more. It was one of those idea's that was well stupid. But since he's got the sabots and well 22 bullets are rather cheap, he may just come up with a load that might just might be minute of a squirels head 20 to 40 yards out. I would be interested in how this ends up working out for you.

George, my friend, when it comes to shooting nothing is stupid. Just not tried yet. I have not tried these sabots, and won't. But don't thing its stupid to try them. I mean if that was the case, then matchkings and target shooting is stupid. Which its not. Just good ole fun. Actually, its more like 6 miles. Well, thats in a controlled enviroment while testing prototypes. Its finally unclassified. My office mate here used to design them up in York, PA several years ago before the gulf war.

SO YEAH COOCH, ALL YOUR FRIEND HAS TO DO IS GET SOMEONE TO MAKE HIM UP SOME .22 SLUGS FROM DEPLETED URANIUM!

WOW! GROUND SQUIRRELS AT 2 MILES!

AND IF THE BULLET DOESN'T KILL 'EM, THE RADIATION WILL!

"THE POSSIBILITIES ARE ENDLESS."

cooch
I fired some RP factory accelerators in a Steyr SSG69 several years ago. With the rifle zeroed for 168gr. Federal Match the 22acc. hit 3 inches high and made groups at and slightly under 1 inch.
A few years later I bought some of the 22acc bullets[the 22 bullet with the sabot still intact] that looked like they had been pulled from factory ammo.
There are 2 different RP 22 accelerators, the ones for the 308/30-06 abd the ones for the 30-30. The ones for the 30-30 have a large portion of lead exposed at the nose of the bullet, the others the jacket ends at the nose.
I have loaded them in my wife's 30-06 drilling. I was looking for a turkey load that would work past normal shotgun range to say 100 yards or so.
They shot plenty good enough for that. Groups were under 1" at 50yards [shot sitting off my knees, no benches in the field]. My wife has not shot a turkey with them yet as she has no problem getting them in close.

For the technical onfo:
The 22 acc. I have weigh a little over 60 grains, usually 60.2 grains.
In the 30-06 I used 45grains of IMR3031. Once again because I have a lot of 3031 on hand.

I recommend your friend use 100gr. bullet starting data for whatever ctg he plans to load, and procede from there.
They will most likley not be super accurate but might just be "minute" of coyote to 300 yards, and they will work for "turkey" type loads up close if slowed down so they do not "blow the bird up".

Look what sabot's have done for shotgun slug hunters, and black powder shooters, also for the military [50cal and 30cal SLAP rounds]

Sabot technology in sporting rifles is something that has not really been explored. What if you could get sabot rounds with 30 cal. 180gr Nosler Partitions in say a 416 Rem Mag or a 458 Lott, or even in a 375 H&H? Reduced recoil and 300 Mag performance from your Elephant gun.

[ 05-30-2003, 02:01: Message edited by: N E 450 No2 ]

For 300Win Mag: 55-64 grs/3031 @ 4425fps
70-78 grs/4350 @ 4525fps

for 300Wby Mag: 80-89 grs/4350 @ 4700fps

or so it sez at: http://citizenx.sinfree.net/sabot.htm

Good Luck, they can be fun. I've done a bunch in various cals to no avail. All were inconsistent for accuracy. OG

My thanks to all of you courteous gentlemen.

Regarding the DU, I wouldn't be surprised if he's working on it already.

Cheers........ Cooch

I think sabots would be fun how about a 45 to 308 or 338 to 257 ect. They would be a lot of fun.

Gentlemen -

You can see from my handle that I have more than a casual interest in sabots. I have a ballistics lab and have spent over 3000 hours sorting out the good and bad of sabots for small arms applications. I plan to open a specific topic on sabots, but suffice it to say:

1. Properly loaded 224/308 caliber sabots shoot the same MOA as the parent cartridge in a given rifle..

2. The wild variations in velocity and accuracy are due to the fact that there are few propellants on the market today that have burn characteristics suitable for shooting 224 bullets in 308 barrels. Most propellants do not work well because pressure drop after ignition is dramatic and unpredictable.

3. Thin sabots holding bullets heavy enough to eliminate rapid pressure drop and make a broader range of powders applicable will shoot smaller MOA than the parent cartridge in a given rifle. Thin sabots do not need to be as stiff and hard as thick ones, and have much less influence on the bullet as they peel of...they actually "detonate" off.

Example: 30-06 shooting 100 gr 6MM bullets. From an internal ballistic perspective, these loads behave very much like moly coated bullets, i.e., when reduced pressure is offset by increased charge weight velocity exceeds loading manual data at safe pressures. Max loads for the '06 for ANY 110 gr bullet may be used as start loads for the 100 gr sabot application.

4. Properly sized and designed sabots nearly eliminate barrel fouling when heavier bullets are used and held to 3700 fps. New compositions will extend the velocity range.

5. The most appropriate application of thin sabots to small arms is to increase the sectional density of the lighter bullets currently used in the firearm. For example, the 6MM 100 gr application to the '06 provides a 60% increase in SD with ballistic coefficient to match. To match the 3500 fps delivered by the '06 in a 22 inch barrel, a 6MM rifle needs 30% more powder and a 29 inch barrel. In this manner, a smaller case can match a larger case when bullet diameter is held constant. A 338 Win Mag, shooting 180 gr .308 bullets can, and does, match the external ballistics of the 300 RUM with 2 inches less bbl and yeilding a 30% reduction in recoil. My 338 RUM launches 180 gr flat based .308 spitzers at 3600 fps and 220 gr SMPs at 3230 fps, both achieving 0.50 MOA. I am a slightly better than average shot. In the hands of an experienced 1000 yard shooter, and with a custom throat I have designed this round will be competitive in 1000 yard matches and has the potential do dominate it after skilled accuracy buffs work with it.

NOTE: This sabot is only 10% larger than the bullet and uses a scored tear away design instead of the typical petals. Very thin petals will "squirm" in the rifling and may not impart full rotation rates. Its more like a very tough patch that peels instead of unwraps. The sabot covers the full length of the bullet with the the diameter dropping from .3385 to .330 at he point where the ogive decreases bullet diameter. They are chambered by hand and do not cycle well. Sabots this thin are poor choices for hunting except with single shot rifles. A 6.5MM/338, .270/338 or 7MM/338 sabot is better if the action is to be cycled. The 6.5 and 7MM will need a custom bbl with 8 to 9.5 inch twist rate, however.

6. The sabot reloading market can easily include kits allowing the reloader to form excellent sabots using moulds and form dies. The specific bullet to be fired can be used in the forming process, as can the throat of the rifle that it will be chambered in. The point of contact with the lands is controlled by the sabot design.

7. Sabots make bullet shape and jackets into EXTERNAL ballistic factors unconstrained by the rigorous requirements of bores and rifling. Unlubed lead bullets work fine. Note: lubed lead bullets at high velocities sometimes look like tracers. The cost of non-jacketed lead or composite bullet, complete with sabot, will be far less that today's jacketed bullets.

8. Sabot kits, as well as finished retail sabots, can easily be designed to make them a very poor choice for criminal activity. Hopefully this will overcome BATF objections to sabots in general. It takes me 20 minutes to an hour to find an expelled sabot on the ground, they give fine detail of rifling engraving, and they can stamp the base of the bullet with a code when fired. Any nitro sniffing dog can find one in 1 minute.

Hopefully my pontification has not bored any of you, but I confess to being something of a sabot nut, just as some of you are gun nuts. Aside from the technical advantages of thin sabots, its just plain fun to work with them.

I would love to have comments or questions on the technical aspects of sabots as well as the business opportunities they present.