I was reloading today and was wondering what is an acceptable variance in the cartridge overall weight(COW for short). Case, primer, powder charge and bullet. When do we need to relook at component quality for consistency?
I'm loading .338WM, SOMCHEM powder, Winchester cases, Woodleigh 250gr PPSN and FED 215 primers.
and 270W, Remington cases, SOMCHEM powder, Woodleigh 150gr PP SN and CCI Primers (LR).

Like to hear your views on this.

Cheers Johan

Your brass will vary quite a bit even from the same lot# but I have found no accuracy issues with my rifles and my poor shooting.

Don't think I ever came across "COW" refering to "cartridge overall weight" before"...COW has been used in reference to "Cream of Wheat" when fireforming cases.

As to cartridge overall weight with a specific run I'm not sure if that would be useful information except if used with statistical application with the run considering a possible velocity/total cartridge weight correlation.

It would take a lot of work running statistical correlations with all the components and would have value ONLY for that particualar run as the next run would have completely different parameters.

But it still is something to think about...doing several runs might yield a number that could be used in a simple, meaningful way across the board...I can see a bunch of problems arising tho'.

I DID/DO use total cartridge weight to check for mess ups when I was benchresting and even today when my mind wanders or I blank out doing repetitive chores, not all the time, just when something causes a question...but all the rest of the components are weighed so I know just what a loaded round should weigh within a very specific weight range. Safety first!!!!

Do a series of runs and post the information or weigh a few boxes of factory ammo. That would give you some idea of the value of your question

Luck

You can save yourself a lot of angst by simply not weighing cases. Segregate by head stamp, yes but weighing, naaah. IMO, it is one of those things that are done by newbies and folks that have entirely too much time on their hands. Especially when you're talking about factory rifles and hunting. And so many people share this opinion that the ones that will tell you, case weight has turned a spray and pray into a one holer are suspect.
Weighing cases doesn't make you a bad person but your time could be better spent at more important task. Like waxing the floor under the fridge or putting lok tite on the bolts holding the commode down...

You can save yourself a lot of angst by simply Weight Sorting Cases. Segregate by head stamp, and then by Weight. IMO, it is one of those things that is done by people who want confidence in their Cartridges being the Best they can make them. Especially when you're talking about factory rifles and hunting. Weighing cases doesn't make you a bad person just a savvy Reloader.

Otherwise, you could be sitting in front of the Boob Tube watching the 24hr/day coverage of obummer.

I have to confess that I weigh cases but only after they’re fully prepped. Brand new, sized and trimmed, flash hole and primer pocket uniformed. There is a “but” though, I only weigh cases that really have the potential to benefit from the extra effort. Mostly varmint rounds in rifles with high powder scopes. I don’t bother weighing pistol, large straight cased rifle rounds, and rounds used in rifles that only have iron sights or low powered scopes.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
You can save yourself a lot of angst by simply Weight Sorting Cases. Segregate by head stamp, and then by Weight. IMO, it is one of those things that is done by people who want confidence in their Cartridges being the Best they can make them. Especially when you're talking about factory rifles and hunting. Weighing cases doesn't make you a bad person just a savvy Reloader.

Otherwise, you could be sitting in front of the Boob Tube watching the 24hr/day coverage of obummer.

Some folks NEED to occupy their time by applying benchrest techniques to tasks where they are wholly unnecessary.

My question is: knowing that I rounded the weights up and down, which ones would you pick to be your main reload cases? Or would you just use them all?

I have never bothered to weigh casings. Having loaded many 10s of thousands of rounds. I find it is a waste of time for me.

Thousands of dead p dogs hundreds of dead deer a few bears and other assorted critters haven't complained.

If your trying to win a brench rest match or some other target match could be use ful for other shooting it hasn't made much of a differants to me.

Just a question. How can “I have never bothered to weigh casings” and “it hasn't made much of a differants to me.” make any sense?

You never weighed a case so you wouldn’t know one way or the other.

Anyway, some people well find value in weighing cases and some wont. It doesn’t hurt anyone to weigh cases and it doesn’t hurt anyone to not weigh cases either. If someone finds it a waste of time, so what? It’s no skin off anyone's nose.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Thousands of dead p dogs hundreds of dead deer a few bears and other assorted critters haven't complained.

Thousands and hundreds?

When I bought the 270 Win I bought 300 one fired cases. All Federal cases.
I sorted them visually to seperate them by the primers.
Some were brass color, some silver color. As I was doing this I noticed some has a red sealer on the silver primers, some blue, some no sealer.
I then went through each pile and weighed the cases. Sorted them to the full grain of weight. 198, 199, 200, 201. I got 120 at 200, 100 at 201, I put them in 20 round boxes and will use each box as a lot.
The rest are not full boxes of 20 so they are setting in a box to be used as dummy rounds or whatever.
If I bought all new brass I might weigh them just to see what the variations might be. Maybe sort them by weight. In my hunting loads I doubt It's nessary to sort new brass by weight. On the once fired brass I did it to help insure consistant case volume.

Unless you can put 5 shots into 1 hole at 100 weighing cases in my opinion is a waste of time. I have won many matches with my 45 with mixed brass and mixed cci and winchester primers.Even won a lever gun shoot with a 99 savage with TW 308 made into 300 savage.I uniform the primer pockets and deburr the flash holes on my 223's that I know will get left on the ground. Does it make a difference NO.. but it makes me feel better.So if it gives you peace of mind,makes you feel better,go for it.

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
My question is: knowing that I rounded the weights up and down, which ones would you pick to be your main reload cases? Or would you just use them all?

Welllll..., I'd recommend..., before that though, I agree with:

quote:

By Mick:
... I weigh cases but only after they’re fully prepped. Brand new, sized and trimmed, flash hole and primer pocket uniformed.(EDIT IN: ) There is a “but” though, I only weigh cases that really have the potential to benefit from the extra effort. Mostly varmint rounds in rifles with high powder scopes.(EDIT IN: Hunting Cases and those which will be used to see who Buys-the-BBQ!!! ) I don’t bother weighing pistol, large straight cased rifle rounds, and rounds used in rifles that only have iron sights or low powered scopes.(EDIT IN: Me too, but I wonder about them. )

-----

Now back to the top: I'd recommend..., that you Re-Weight Sort those Cases to XXX.Xgr. Write the Weight on a sheet of paper and on a small piece of "3M Transparent Tape" which is applied to the Case. Then when you have them all weighed, you can sort them into ANY SIZE groups you desire. There is generally some Cases at each extreme end of the Weight Range that can be used to measure where the SAFE MAX Pressure is for that Lot of Cases.

Doesn't take long to do, I Weight Sorted 100 22RimFire Cartridges just last night. All are seperated in a Plastic Case by Weight(XX.Xgr) and Color Coded to a strip of Masking Tape on the container as to what the actual Weight is. I think it took about 35min to do from the time I turned the light on in the Reloading Room until everything was put back where it was supposed to be and the light was off. Didn't hear a single word about obummer telling Egypt how to run their country, or how many times he posed for a camera.

craigster

Yes thousands and hundreds. When I was shooting p dogs a couple trips a year it was nothing to burn through 2000 rounds a trip my self not counting the kids and the wife. A 80% kill on pdogs that is 1600 per trip 3200 a year did that for 10 years or so just for me 32000 dead p dogs. And thats just p dogs not counting ground squirrels ect.

As for deer well over a couple hunderd if not 300 for the family and me. I belive 10 bears with my hand loads.

Then add in yotes, fox, and other varmints it adds up to many more.

Let me see 40 plus years of hunting for me 30 for the wife 26 for the two kids plus another 20 or 30 years for others that have use my hand loads adds up to many thousands and many of hundreds of dead critters killed with non weighed caseings.

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Thousands of dead p dogs hundreds of dead deer a few bears and other assorted critters haven't complained.

Thousands and hundreds?

1,000s of Prairie dogs is not an unusual thing out here in the rocky mountain west. My wife and I go out on day trips and burn through 300 to 600 rounds (4 different rifles) 3-6 different P. D. towns by 4:00 PM. It all depends on how bad the hawks get and how many times we have to move to a different setup or town.

When considering the COW (cartridge overall length) you also have to consider the BULL (bullet upper limit length). If compatable things will happen.

Whether or not you consider "bench" prepping your cases depends on the level of accuracy that happens to float your boat...pretty much nothing more.

I have NO use for an inaccurate rifle and my minimum level of accuracy for ALL the rifles still in my rack is ~0.600" plus or minus 0.200"...slightly under 1/2" to slightly over 3/4"...that includes calibers from 17 to 50. The hole might be bigger but the C to C falls within my acceptable parameters or I keep working on the components or get rid of the rifle.

I can't achieve that level of accuracy unless the rifle AND ammo is tuned...and that takes WORK which many are to .......to do.

Here is one example...I've been reloading my small cals for the past several weeks getting ready for rat season.

I decided polish my 17 Rem cases and ran 50- 100 rounds at a time through the polishers...I have two.

These 324 odd cases have been prepped from the gitgo...brand new Rem cases for a new Shilen 26" bbl I chambered and installed on a Sav SA about 3 years ago.

The cases had the flash hole deburred, the primer pocked uniformed, neck turned to 0.012" and trimmed to 1.78", weigh sorted and boxed in 2-100 case and 3-50 case boxes, the last one only containing 24 rounds, the rest were outside the range either high or low weights and were tossed.

I've used the same load of 25.0 gr IMR4320 right out of several manuals and articles on the 17 Rem, 25 gr Hornady first, then the 20 gr VMax when it came out, for about 20 years. It proved to be the most accurate in two rifles...one of the first Rem 700 17 Rems to hit the area and I bought used and cheap because the barrel was so fouled it was blowing primers...all it needed was a 2 month cleaning...the other is my present Shilen barrels Savage

The 20gr VM is seated to 2.21" OAL and produces ~4300fs, 10fs spread, 5fs SD and 1/2" plus/minus ~0.125" 3-5 shot groups consistently...sometime just one slightly enlarged 0.172" hole. For those with a little more understanding, the groups drift about 0.400", left as it happens, from lightest to heaviest cases over 100 rounds.

I wanted to try a couple different powders, Benchmark, H4895 and 8208 since checking out the Hodgdon site.

I sized 12 rounds using a Lee collet, picked 5 at random and started with 25.5 gr H4895 loaded 2 for the chrono and 3 for the target. I also fired 3 of the 4320 loads over the chrono to check...~4307fs, 10 spread, 5SD, pretty much the same as last time I chronoed this load...no targets.

The H4895 load chrono gave 4675fs, 40fs spread and 20fs SD and the target was 1"...WTH...something went south. I weighed the 5 cases...94.5gr to 95.5gr...not too bad for a 100 case spread but pisspoor for a 5 round spread.

I keep ALL my brass segregated in the boxes no matter WHAT caliber, the same way. Looking at the left end of the box the rounds start lightest left to right, bottom to top, that way the difference between any two cases is about 1/10 gr.

Back to the loading room...weighed 5 more cases...2 at 94.5, 1 at 94.6 and 2 at 94.7. 2 chronoed 4470fs, 10fs spread, 5SD...nice equilateral 1/2" triangle...LOST 200 fs by dropping .5 gr powder, but gained back the accuracy.

I took those same 5 cases, reloaded them with the same load and fired them the SAME way...~4472fs, 10fs spread, 5fs SD..and same 1/2" group...this time a 90° right triangle.

I loaded and fired the original 5 cases again with the 25gr H4895 load this time just to confirm what I already knew from many past experiences...4464fs, 45fs spread and 22fs SD. and similar 1" group.

ANY benchrester or target shooter probably can confirm similar things happening...you won't see it happening to any off the shelf rifle, factory ammo or run of the mill reloading even with a tuned rifle...the subtle variances are masked by the total variance in the ammo.

If you look at the numbers fairly close it will show you what a few tenths difference in case capacity and a few tenths difference in powder amounts can do a to load especially in a small case and it is even worse in a 17/20/221 FB.

As far as the numbers of PD taken at one time, I finished frying one 6mm-248 barrel in one day of shooting potguts in Utah and used up 500 rnds of ammo...just one rifle, not counting the other 3 and my buddies 2 which got their share also.

Hey...it's YOUR toy and YOUR shot. We all have differing levels of needs and understandings... but don't talk "stuff" and think you've convinced everyone you're a gardener.

Thats GOOD, Carpetman1 ...(Get Over Outmoded Delusions)

MickinColo...I let the average range between high and low tell me what cases to keep and it is different with every bunch you work with. Statistically speaking with a "normal" grouping, you will have equal amounts on bothe sides of the "average" but sometimes depending on the maker the average can be skewed to one side or the other.

For your picture, you have a range of 3.5gr and most fall at the 168.5 and 169 gr "average" with a 1.5gr spread. I would take the cases from 168 to 170, and keep the 8 "outliers" for "foulers" or dummies or.... That would give you an average case weight of ~169gr plus/minus 1 grain...pretty darn good for everything but maximum benchrest/competition shooting in a 50 gr volume case size, and if boxed from low to high you wouldn't have more than .5 gr difference in case weight.

If these were 223 sized cases I would split the range at 169 and re-sort into two lots of .10 gr weights, that way you might pick up those 8 "oddballs". As I pointed out above .5 gr weight difference in a small case is WAY too much for me.

FWIW I use .10 gr for 30 gr volume FB and 223 size cases, .3-.5 gr for 50gr 308, .5-.7 for 65gr '06, .7-1.0 for 80gr WSM/belted mag and 1.0-2.0 for Rigby size. Not cast in stone, it depends on the brass, how I feel, what the groups are doing, bullet weight range, type of bullet and 50 plus years of unexplainable experience...the "little voice" flapping it's tongue in my ear.

Luck

Carpetman, Good one. Seems that some of the members are obsessed with the BULL.

Foobar, once again you presume to the high road. ROFLMAO

HC, (and Foobar) might want to stop cutting little logs of 4350 in half seeking the perfect load and watch a little TV. Whether or not it's a boob tube depends on what you're watching. Admittedly there's not too many reloading tips on Romper Room but you could maybe shine up your hunting skills by watching some of the saturday morning shows.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Carpetman, Good one. Seems that some of the members are obsessed with the BULL.

Foobar, once again you presume to the high road. ROFLMAO

HC, (and Foobar) might want to stop cutting little logs of 4350 in half seeking the perfect load and watch a little TV. Whether or not it's a boob tube depends on what you're watching. Admittedly there's not too many reloading tips on Romper Room but you could maybe shine up your hunting skills by watching some of the saturday morning shows.

Cmon Beeman the internet is more entertaining! Note that I didn't say educational>

Hey, Beeman...I don't presume ANYTHING and if you want to ROFLMAOIM(rolling on the floor laughing my head off in mediocrity)...go right ahead, I certainly wouldn't want to stop you...by the way I don't have a TV...way too much garbage on it I understand, I get enough of that ignorance online for the time it take to eat meals...tell me how do YOU know about Romper Room unless YOU watch it.

Maybe YOU should get to know a few Techies...you might learn something new, exciting and worth while or are you too old, too set in your ways, not enough understanding, not enough.... ...not to put too fine a point on it.

As I keep saying...it YOUR toy...do what you want, but don't expect the rest of us "Techies" to stay in the same rut...we have out own superhighway to travel. Everyone is welcome to the information free of charge and free of prejudice.

Luck

Foo, that is the point I keep trying to make. The waste of time that could be better spent.

Who sez I'm accepting mediocraty?? Where have I said that I prefer shitty ammo?? My point is that you and your ilk spend a lot of time piddling around accomplishing nothing but you try to make it a virtue by claiming you have such high standards that anything less would not be acceptable. But it's not really high standards that drives you (and your ilk), it's an obsession with nit-pickery. You know, like the guy on the job that is in constant motion and at the end of the day, he tells you how exhausted he is but only his best effort is acceptable to him. That sounds great but when you look at what he has ACTUALLY ACCOMPLISHED, it don't amount to much.

I have proven to my own satisfaction that much of the idle "busy work" you "purist" espouse is nit-pickery that really contributes nothing toward accuracy. And this has been reinforced by numerous long time reloaders. So I don't do it. I think watching some goofy-assed TV show might be preferable to wasting the time needed to ensure that my flash holes are reamed to exactly 17degree. Or squaring my primer pockets up to agree with the magnetic force common to the northern hemisphere.

How do I know about Romper Room?? We raised two sons. At one time I could probably name you the entire cast of Sesame Street.

When selecting a Cow, if you plan on matching it to a STEER (Standard Temperature Energy Efficiency Rating) you wont get reproduceable results.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
HC, (and Foobar) might want to stop cutting little logs of 4350 in half seeking the perfect load ...

Gave that up years and YEARS ago. Now I have a Stick Powder Shaver - Thingy(SPS-T) that Mr.Woods custom builds and R sells to support himself and his 22-children. They work really well and remove Powder at the Atomic level - for those of us who really care about our Loads.

Rumor has it Mr. Woods is working on one similar to the first one, but it also includes a very tiny Strain Gauge which will make it a SPS-SG-T. This one is waited with in WILD anticipation of trimming the last few 0.00000000001"s off Groups. It measures the "Deflection" of the Powder Grain while it is being Shaved and if it doesn't meet your personal Standards, you can resell those Grains to Haphazard Reloaders you shoot against.
-----

Just makes me wonder "How many 1,000,000s of P-Dogs and 1.000s of Deer Pdog shooter could have gotten "IF ONLY" he had Weight Sorted those Cases. Sad but true!
-----

Hey Carpetman, I'm waiting on COW - ABUNGA!!!(That is for all the ancient old TV viewers.)

Hot core the number is limited by only time and money. If I could have more of both the number would rise by many times.

And then if I had more time it would be spent shooting not weighing caseings.

Have at it weigh all the casings you guys want to do. My time is worth more then that.

quote:

I have never bothered to weigh casings.

Me neither and been reloading for thirty-two years. Am I missing something?

I just segregate cases by headstamp and batch and assume the makers' have done their job too!

Intersting how the OP asking about the entire loaded cartridge weight equates to variences in the only component that really CAN vary that much....the brass case....so it becomes a thread about how accuracy is effected by a batch of ammo that is case sorted as opposed to a batch of ammo that is not.

It really hurts me when I have to disagree with folks; ...I like to never disrupt the harmony of anything;

I have found that weight sorting brass doesn't effect or improve accuracy as much as other factors in the entire equipment/load set up.

If you like to do it and it makes you feel good about your load work and you think it helps, by all means keep doing it! Confidence is a part of the game as well!

I've found that a quality rifle (custom barrel, blue printed action, pillar bedded, good trigger, and proven scope like a Leupold or even a proven factory rifle that is a "shooter") has the largest bearing on accuracy. They shoot just about anything well.

I do all kinds of case prep; neck turning, uniforming primer pockets, flash hole deburring, and annealing. Of these I think neck turning and annealing have the greatest value from an accuracy standpoint for case prep.



Brass had absolutely no prep; loaded from new




.300 WM with load developed in WW Brass NOT WEIGHT SORTED; 300 yard group



300 yard group, .243 WSSM, WW Brass, NO PREP



600 yards with no weight sorting, 1.4" group


I have a lot of other examples. All of the groups were fired in rifles that have proven their accuracy. I don't believe you can improve a dog rifle by weight sorting and I don't believe you can see an improvement in accuracy by weight sorting for a great rifle. amamnn posted a load tuning tip from Jack Neary that can be seen on youtube. I've never heard of the guy or seen him, but I guess he's a big time bench rest shooter. He even stated that weight sorting brass is something he doesn't do because there's no difference in accuracy. One of the biggest things he said that effected accuracy was if all of the brass was trimmed to exactly the same length and about neck clearance in the chamber.

If you think that sorting is for you, just buy Nosler or Lapua brass. You won't have to get rid of any rejects and it probably saves $ in the long run. In the .300 WM that shot the group in one of the pics above, I have batches of Nosler brass as well as WW brass. The load shoots the same in each brand so it's a comparison accuracy weight sorted vs. not...

HC, you shouldn't make post like that because a whole bunch of the AR (anal retentive) crowd are gonna be demanding to know where they can buy a powder shaver.

I have never annealed a case in my life but I do agree that neck turning, even with a factory rifle, will give you a measureable increase in accuracy due, I assume, to the uniform bullet pull. Enough to make doing it worthwhile for hunting?? Naah, but if you're shooting a factory match, it may be just enough to win.

Sooner or later, one has to answer the basic question.....am I a benchrester wannabe or a hunter.....when one has that answer he then can strike out to be exactly that.

It seems we have a whole lot of benchrester wannabes that own hunting rifles.....nothing wrong with that....but these folks would be far better off starting with a benchrest quality rifle in the first place.

There are a lot of things that might shave a thousandth of an inch or two from the groups of a benchrest rifle.....but will never do a thing (or even be noticed if they actually did something) from a hunting rifle!

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
I have never annealed a case in my life but I do agree that neck turning, even with a factory rifle, will give you a measureable increase in accuracy due, I assume, to the uniform bullet pull. .

As with neck turning, annealing gives uniform bullet pull. I saw a difference in accuracy immediately when all the cases were in the same annealed state. If you have cases that have been work-hardened in all degrees, they all have varying degrees of neck tension...

Vapo, too true. We have learnt a lot of good stuff from the stool shooters but when I read about hunters posting about how they jam their hunting bullets into the lands and cull their brass down to +/- .02grs and send their rifles off to have a "competition" crown cut, etc, I wonder if too much of a good thing is bad.
Folks will buy the cheapest Savage/Stevens they can and then send it off to be "accurized" and put it in a $500.00 McSquirrely stock.

RC, no doubt you're right but because of the way I handle my brass, I never have ammo made from brass with varying numbers of firings. Let's say I buy 100 cases, they are all fire formed before I do much to them. But then, I'll take say a unit of 25 and do my entire "rock and rusty nail" prep to them. And then I'll use them over and over until they get tired and then I'll pitch them. Then I'll get another unit of 25 and start over. The size of the unit, of course, is fluid but all of the cases within the unit have been fired the same number of times.
And too, I have read some pretty lengthy discussions on what colour the brass should be before quenching and how to determine if the right temperature is reached, etc. It all sounded too tedious for me.

I think I'm in trouble

I find myself agreeing with everything rc said!

And it is so unlike me to disagree with HC!

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
I think I'm in trouble

I find myself agreeing with everything rc said!

And it is so unlike me to disagree with HC!

You Guys never cease to amaze me. I was just wondering about a silly COW and all these different some amusing replies!

I don't think I'll ever weigh cases. For approx. 1/2-3/4" groups with my .338WM and 250gr Woodleigh's in a factory Weatherby Vanguard make the guys smile on the range

Cheers and thanks for all the remarks

Johan

Cabin fever, Johnny boy. It's winter time here.