I have been a huge fan of Butch�s Bore Shine for many years. At the range between strings or at home for copper removal, it has worked very well. I don�t need to spend a lot of time scrubbing my bore to an early grave with Butch�s and you can leave it in your barrel overnight. However, for stubborn copper fouling I have always resorted to Sweets - following the directions to the letter.

A few weeks ago I was given a bottle of Montana X-Treme to test drive. After a few uses I gotta say that I am very impressed. It is more aggressive than Butch�s and about the same as Sweets. However, the added benefit is - it�s safe to leave in your barrel for more than 15 minutes; unlike Sweets. I will still use Butch�s at the range, but for my bores which seem to foul more, I am switching to Montana X-Treme over Sweets.

According to the folks over at Sinclair, they are seeing the same results that I am. They also recommend to neutralize the solvent as you would any high ammonia content cleaner followed by a non-teflon oil for storage. (It is also a good idea to flush your brushes after each use.) Remember ammonia is hygroscopic. If left in your barrel it will attract moisture.

ZD good news. has anybody asked the good folks at Sinclair about Wipe-out? I used some on my old Pedersolli the other day and was amazed how well it did....just wonder what those guys think of it...it may actually clean too well.
Dave

I've had very good results with the Montana X-treme bore cleaner also. However, now I just use it to make sure the Wipe-Out foam has done it's job completely. I haven't tried the Barnes CR10 or whatever it is, but the Montana X-treme is excellent.

Good Hunting,

I should receive my shipment from Sinclair today with Montana X included.I have used Butch's for awhile but would like to have something that does better on Copper. Glad you guys recomend it.
What is the problem with Teflon based oils ? I have used CLP for years and it seems to work very well.

Dave - As far a Wipe-Out is concerned, I don�t want to get into a pizzin match with those who use it. Personally, I will stick with ammonia based solvents. I know they are safe and I know that I am removing copper fouling. One or two shots and I am back into the accuracy groove. Easy enough for me.

Rob - Teflon is a no-no in barrels. Under heat and pressure, teflon complicates fouling and cleaning - it does not reduce friction inside the bore. CLP works great for everything else. I use Butch's gun oil for bore protection, Rig on my bolt lugs, and BreakFree on everything else.

One detrimental characteristic (to me) about CLP and some others is that they migrate. It'll crawl into places it shouldn't be like under your bedding surfaces. Velly bad for consistent grouping.

Redial

I've got almost all the borecleaners listed. Sweats, wipeout, butches, kroil, rem borecleaner, hoppes benchrest.

I still love to use wipeout. I used it lastnight on a friends .270 win. 2 patches with wd 40 cleaned out the powder fowling. Then we looked down the bore and saw all kinds of copper streaking. Inserted a bore guide, pumped in the wipout and went to bed. Got up this morning and ran a tight patch through it and it looked like a blue inK pen had exploded in there over night.
One glance and there was not a trace of copper I could see.

TOTAL TIME INVESTED TO THIS POINT 2 MINUTES!!
TOTAL PASSES DOWN THE BARREL WITH A ROD--3.

Sometimes a tough job might require 2-3 applications and I think that's where wipout is getting a bad rap. But lets see--3 applications at 2 min ea is 6 minutes. I can live with that.
Besides I've had to do several applications with even sweats on tough barrels.

After doing what I think is a good copper removal I follow with a patch of flitz or rem bore cleaner mixed with kroil. Then kroil alone. Then lastly a light coat of midway moly bore prep or shooter choice rust prevent.

What exactly happens if Sweets is left in the bore longer than 15 minutes, I always wondered? What happens when I need to run some more through and 15 minutes has past? What I'm saying guys, is how long do you have to wait to use it again and why? They say it's harmless to your bore.

It's all I use after getting the powder out with Shooters Choice solvent. After I use the Sweets, I use the SC to clean up the Sweets then just repeat if needed, I never wait 24 HRS or anything like that to use it again. I just don't know why I'm rushing to get this stuff out of my bore is all, and how long to wait when I do.

The cheapest bore cleaner for copper I know is Windex with ammonia.

I make mine using a little concentrated ammonia in Palmolive handsoap, germicidal too . Works well indeed. I use synthetic transmission fluid to stroke the bore with since it is loaded with surfactants and detergents.

Brent,
I left Sweets in a barrel overnight.
Not only did it etch the bore, it etched holes in the muzzle.

I'd like to try Wipe-Out, but have yet to hear back from them on local supplier, or how to order it directly!
It may be great, but anything that hard to buy may just not be worth the hassle.
Ed's has served me quite well except with one VERY rough Contender barrel!

LouisB

Has anyone else used patches cut from lead-cleaning cloths? No matter what I use to clean a bore (wipe-out, Hoppes BR) if I run one of these patches down a "clean" bore it comes out black. Since about 90% of my shooting is with cast bullets I am familiar with these cloths. I have found by experimentation that even after a thorough cleaning with wipe-out, my 223 barrel (which only sees jacketed bullets) will still come out black with a lead cleaning cloth patch.

Max
I think that the black you are seeing on the lead cleaning patches is acutely steel being removed from the bore. The led cleaning patches are extremely abrasive and should be used sparingly and for lead removal only.

[ 11-17-2002, 04:54: Message edited by: 35nut ]

Do any of you use JB compound from brownells? Is it any good for copper removal?

Wstrnhunter,
I use Jb after I have cleaned just to make sure there isn't another layer of powder fouling in there with more copper beneath that. You would be surprised how many times you can get more copper out of a "clean" barrel. JB is an excellent product and will not harm your barrel in any way. I also use it in my bench guns on occasion just to be sure. Jim

The next step up from JB bore paste is Fitz.
I left molly in a steel barrel in my car and it had a red rust film that looked like copper fouling.
The JB could not take it out in a reasonable amount of time, but the Fitz got it out fast.

Varmint Al has a picture of JB vs Fitz polishing. They are both microscopic scratches, but Fitz is courser.

I ordered my Wipeout from Cabela's-so far I really like it!

I have been using shooter's choice and been satisfied. Do any of you'all have an opinion of shooter's choice or have your used it?

King,

Nothing wrong with Shooters Choice, I used that and Sweet's but these things got so expensive as to be ridiculous. I make my own.

With Ed's Red it will get everything but the copper and it works very well indeed, I have added the lanolin too. For lubricant I swab the bore with ATF, I use Amsoil which is synthetic.

For copper I made my own with concentrated ammonia in Palmolive.

For pure copper removal, mix one quart of 25% Ammonia with 1 cup of Hydrogen Peroxide. Called Blue Goop because old timers would drop a penny in it to turn it blue....Be damn sure to clean it dry and oil profusly when clean....I use WD-40 in a clean bore....

Barnes is about the best or rather strongest cleaner on the market as is Wipe out...Wipe Out is some very good stuff and you can leave it in your barrel for 5 or 5 hours and some say even overnight....

JB's is great when combined with Kroil....Rem Oil is good for cleaning but not for copper removal. Do not use JB bore clean on a regular bases. about once a year is plenty...

The above are the cleaners that I use.

I have tried Butches and it's about as good as distilled water IMO...Sweets is just barely OK and takes forever to clean copper out. MOst all cleaners work on powder residue...Most of the other stuff is mildly effective IMO and based on my tests...

I have never used Montana X....and btw Wipe Out is Amonia based.

In a previous posting I brought up the subject of split case necks in stored ammo.This is caused by stress corrosion cracking and one of the major factors is ammonia in the air such as that generated in thunderstorms.Ammonia from bore cleaners obviously can also cause problems so keep it away from your brass.

Wipe out works good for me. Sweets eats up my brushes and as I keep forgetting to buy new ones The wipe out is better for me.

Baldeagle,
your supposed to use nylon brushes with amonia based cleaners..they all eat copper.

I use a .22 cal pistol brush for cleaning all my calibers up to .308. I just use different size patches wrapped around it to get the right friction. Don't know if the copper eaters are slowly shrinking it or not--it's just there like a "mini porcupine" to grip the patch!! Works for me!! Also--a nice small 22 cal rod is pretty easy to keep centered when working from the bore end like on a lever action or auto.

Atkinson:

quote:

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I have never used Montana X....and btw Wipe Out is Amonia based.

---

See the WipeOut webpage at http://www.paulcousa.com/wipeout.htm

The product, according to the company� DOES NOT contain AMMONIA

[ 11-22-2002, 21:48: Message edited by: Sysephus ]