Went to the range today to chrony a few loads I have been working with.

After I finished my hand loads I shot some Winchester factory loaded 180 SP in 30-06.

5 shot avg 2839 fps, SD 13.8, 1.3 inch group from a 24" Shilen Barrel on M98. Measured about 10 feet from the muzzle. I was expecting more like 2700 fps.

For reference, my hand loads -- 57 grains of IMR4350 with a 165 Speer SP flat based averaged 2876 fps today.

So I pulled one of the WW 180 loads - thinking maybe someone swapped 165s for 180s - but they are 180's with 57.2 grains of some ball type powder.

For those that do not have a chronograph (a relatively inexpensive tool) this data will never be known. Hot Core.....are you listening?

If a person reloads he just can't get too much information as he must decide on many factors whether to stop, change, increase, or whatever.

Thanks for the post!

Any pressure signs with that Winchester ammo?

I had the opposite with some Remington 180gr Corelokts in 30-06, these went over my chrono at 2,550fps on average.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
...Hot Core.....are you listening? ...

Yes. But, since he apparently did not measure the CHE or the PRE, there is no worthwhile way to assess the Pressure the W-W Factory Cartridges had in comparison to the Reloads - at the Range.

Maybe he could get his Reloads going that Velocity Safely, with a Ball Powder slightly faster than IMR-4350, then again, maybe not. Maybe he could with the IMR4350 he is currently using, then again, maybe not.

He can keep trying and checking Velocity, then wait until he gets home and check how "snug" the Primers Seat - if no other Pressure(too high) Indicators exhibit themselves. But, he will probably reach a point where he will make a nice bunch of Cases worthless.
-----

I can see why he would be interested in that Velocity knowledge. It is just a shame he dosen't have the CHE and PRE to see if he could "SAFELY" duplicate them.

Hey Vapo, What do you think a person can do with the 180gr 2839fps knowledge?

Since we need to check the actual Drop Rate at the distances we intend to take shots, being off 139fps in a "guesstimate" would still have gotten him close enough to be on paper. The B.C., Elevation and Environmental conditions might null out the extra 139fps anyhow, than again, maybe not. And being off 139fps when calculating the Energy might cause some to panic, but I'd not be overly concerned.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey Vapo, What do you think a person can do with the 180gr 2839fps knowledge?

Well....If I chrono'd that velocity with a .30-06 and 180 grain bullet from a factory load, the first thing I'd be doing is looking for signs of pressure. I'd be getting out the blade mike and trying to seat new primers.....and if there were no signs of pressure and the accuracy was good and I liked the bullet I just might head to the place I bought them and buy a bunch more!

If there was signs of pressure I might pull the bullets and salvage the case and primers....

I'm not sure actually because I've never found factory loads like that.....

But this much is clear.....it's a piece of information....pure and simple and should not be ignored.....IMO it suggests but don't necessitate high pressures.

It's actually an academic question and reply as I almost never buy factory ammo!

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
since he apparently did not measure the CHE or the PRE, there is no worthwhile way to assess the Pressure the W-W Factory Cartridges had in comparison to the Reloads - at the Range.

Maybe he could get his Reloads going that Velocity Safely, with a Ball Powder slightly faster than IMR-4350, then again, maybe not. Maybe he could with the IMR4350 he is currently using, then again, maybe not.

Then again those W-W factory loads may have been over pressure. But neither PRE nor CHE will tell him.

No visual signs of pressure from the WW factory.
Primers look good, no extractor marks, extracted with out a problem. I will measure the fired case heads against the unfired cases from the same box when I have time.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Yes. But, since he apparently did not measure the CHE or the PRE, there is no worthwhile way to assess the Pressure the W-W Factory Cartridges had in comparison to the Reloads - at the Range.

And if he did measure the CHE and PRE-----he still wouldn't have any idea what the pressure was!!

To steal and modify a quote from Ronald Reagan:

“It’s not that Hot Core isn't smart,

it’s just that so much of what he knows isn’t true.”

quote:

Originally posted by trigger:

So I pulled one of the WW 180 loads - thinking maybe someone swapped 165s for 180s - but they are 180's with 57.2 grains of some ball type powder.

Hmmm.. Very interesting.. 57.2 grs indicates W-W is using a powder with a burning rate similar to IMR4350 or maybe a tad slower.

quote:

Very interesting.. 57.2 grs indicates W-W is using a powder with a burning rate similar to IMR4350 or maybe a tad slower.

Win-760 fits the description just fine;.

yeah something close to w-780.
or aa-2700/3100 range.

Yep, I was thinkin W-780 as well..

If W-W thinks this is the way to go for a factory load that will be used everywhere, there must be a good reason..

I have seen W760 loads in 7mm WSM give variance of over 200 fps between a hot summer day and a cold Winter day - from the same box of reloads.

quote:

Originally posted by boltman:
And if he did measure the CHE and PRE-----he still wouldn't have any idea what the pressure was!! ...

That is a common misperception made by people who do not understand CHE and PRE. You shouldn't feel bad about having made that mistake, just ignorant.

Where are your graphs Hot Boor? You know, the ones that correlate a given CHE or PRE to PSI or CUP?

"Combine Winchester components with 760 to duplicate 30-06 Springfield factory load ballistics."

The above statemant is quoted from the winchester powder website talking about WW760. I read this information two years ago and pulled 10 bullets to weigh the powder charges. This was 180 grain power point silver box stuff. They varied from 54.5 grains to 56 grains in a single box. regardless of that, my rifle liked this factory load so I settled on 55 grains for my load. Sounds like yours might be loaded on the heavier side which would explain the higher velocity. It is fairly common knowledge as well that factory 30-06 is underloaded somewhat due to the age of the cartridge ( or really the age of some of the rifle chambered for it) so maybe they can get away with this? Sounds risky to me but if it is not being fired in a 80 year old rifle, and you don't see any problematic pressure signs, enjoy your 30-06 +P loads.

BTW, I could care less about CHE, PRE, or MRE's. I just shoot and hunt. And yes, I'll admit that I RE-load, I don't necassarily handload, actually I'm somewhere in between and that's where I like it.

Before I did anything drastic I would fire from
an additional 10 feet, could be muzzle blast.
good luck1

ive picked up a couple hundred fps by being alittle too close to the crony,not all that uncommon, if it seems odd move back a few feet

the two chronys i owned both read about a 150 fps fast.

I also experienced some silly fast readings from Beta and Gamma Chronys, and didn't really realize it until I got an Oehler 35-P. After many years with the Oehler I am now totaly confident in my readings. Good shooting.

Hey, just a side note.. One of Alliant's new Ball powder offerings, 4000-MR, is listed for 30/06 with Speer's 180gr TBBC bullet... 57.0 grains at 2750 fps.

I just happened to pick a pound of 4000-MR up last weekend to work with a .300 H&H, but this powder could be useful in quite a few applications.

http://www.alliantpowder.com/r...llid=81&bulletid=257

i was using some expensive cronograph that was givin me 4000fps with my 7mag thats the kind i like.
the only time ive got bad readings from any cronograph seem to be muzzle blast or bad lighting like snow on ground
i like to shoot a 22 thru to test and not waste ammo first
ive tested a lot of different guns and rarely find anything much faster than advertised