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sambarman338
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posted
Does anyone here have access to Quickload? Would you mind running a couple of equations in it for me?

In trying to devise a Win 748 load for cast slugs in my Miroku 86 Winchester .45-70, I've been urged to ask someone to run two sets of data for it, one to 28,000 psi and another to 40,000.

The lubricated, gas-checked bullets (from a Redding/Saeco No.19 mould) weigh 468 grains and will be seated to .585" below the mouth of Starline brass that is 2.095" long.

A poster on Cast Boolits says a Brian Pierce has found Starline cases to have a mid-range total volume of 77.5 grains of water.

My Winchester Short Rifle's barrel is 24 inches long.

I'll post on the Lever Action and Big Bores forums, too, but to keep the conversation focused and aid RIP's Mission, would appreciate your answering on the Big Bores forum 458 Winchester Magnum thread.

Thanks in anticipation
 
Posts: 5119 | Location: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: 31 March 2009Reply With Quote
sambarman338
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quote:
Originally posted by sambarman338:
Does anyone here have access to Quickload? Would you mind running a couple of equations in it for me?

In trying to devise a Win 748 load for cast slugs in my Miroku 86 Winchester .45-70, I've been urged to ask someone to run two sets of data for it, one to 28,000 psi and another to 40,000.

The lubricated, gas-checked bullets (from a Redding/Saeco No.19 mould) weigh 468 grains and will be seated to .585" below the mouth of Starline brass that is 2.095" long.

A poster on Cast Boolits says a Brian Pierce has found Starline cases to have a mid-range total volume of 77.5 grains of water.

My Winchester Short Rifle's barrel is 24 inches long.

I'll post on the Lever Action and Big Bores forums, too, but to keep the conversation focused and aid RIP's Mission, would appreciate your answering on the Big Bores forum 458 Winchester Magnum thread.

Thanks in anticipation


Seeing 30.06king's post on 300 magnum loads, it occurs to me to mention I'll be using CCI No. 250 magnum primers, which seem to be indicated for use with W748.
 
Posts: 5119 | Location: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: 31 March 2009Reply With Quote
jpl
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posted Hide Post
Cartridge          : .45-70 Govt. SAAMI
Bullet             : .457, 451, LYM LRN GC 457406
Useable Case Capaci: 54.843 grain H2O = 3.561 cm
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.770 inch = 70.36 mm
Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder             : Winchester 748

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-20.0   72    38.92   1311    1787   14898   2579     76.5    2.425
-18.0   73    39.89   1347    1884   15882   2683     78.1    2.352
-16.0   75    40.87   1382    1984   16928   2787     79.6    2.283
-14.0   77    41.84   1417    2086   18037   2890     81.1    2.216
-12.0   79    42.81   1452    2192   19213   2991     82.6    2.152
-10.0   80    43.79   1488    2300   20463   3091     84.0    2.091
-08.0   82    44.76   1523    2411   21790   3188     85.4    2.032
-06.0   84    45.73   1559    2524   23200   3283     86.7    1.975
-04.0   86    46.70   1594    2641   24700   3376     87.9    1.920  ! Near Maximum !
-02.0   88    47.68   1630    2760   26295   3465     89.1    1.867  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0   89    48.65   1665    2881   27992   3552     90.2    1.817  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0   91    49.62   1701    3005   29796   3635     91.3    1.768  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0   93    50.60   1736    3132   31729   3715     92.3    1.721  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0   95    51.57   1771    3261   33786   3791     93.2    1.675  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0   97    52.54   1807    3392   35983   3862     94.1    1.632  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0   98    53.52   1842    3526   38331   3930     95.0    1.589  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
 
Posts: 868 | Registered: 13 November 2008Reply With Quote
jpl
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posted Hide Post
Cartridge          : .45-70 Govt. SAAMI
Bullet             : .457, 451, LYM LRN GC 457406
Useable Case Capaci: 54.843 grain H2O = 3.561 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.770 inch = 70.36 mm
Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder             : Winchester 748

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-20.0   80    43.36   1472    2252   19908   3048     83.4    2.117
-18.0   82    44.44   1512    2375   21353   3157     84.9    2.050
-16.0   84    45.53   1551    2501   22899   3264     86.4    1.986
-14.0   86    46.61   1591    2630   24554   3367     87.8    1.925  ! Near Maximum !
-12.0   88    47.70   1630    2762   26327   3467     89.1    1.867  ! Near Maximum !
-10.0   90    48.78   1670    2898   28228   3563     90.4    1.810  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-08.0   92    49.86   1709    3036   30267   3655     91.5    1.756  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-06.0   94    50.95   1749    3178   32458   3743     92.6    1.704  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-04.0   96    52.03   1788    3323   34813   3825     93.7    1.654  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-02.0   98    53.12   1828    3471   37349   3903     94.6    1.607  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0  100    54.20   1867    3621   40081   3975     95.5    1.561  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0  102    55.28   1906    3775   43030   4041     96.3    1.516  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0  104    56.37   1945    3931   46218   4101     97.0    1.474  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0  106    57.45   1984    4090   49670   4155     97.7    1.432  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0  108    58.54   2023    4251   53413   4202     98.2    1.393  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0  110    59.62   2061    4415   57481   4242     98.7    1.354  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
 
Posts: 868 | Registered: 13 November 2008Reply With Quote
jpl
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posted Hide Post
Mag primer (higher starting pressure):

Cartridge          : .45-70 Govt. SAAMI
Bullet             : .457, 451, LYM LRN GC 457406
Useable Case Capaci: 53.348 grain H2O = 3.464 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.770 inch = 70.36 mm
Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder             : Winchester 748

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-20.0   71    37.68   1301    1760   15472   2475     76.3    2.387
-18.0   73    38.62   1334    1851   16426   2574     77.8    2.326
-16.0   75    39.56   1368    1944   17437   2672     79.3    2.266
-14.0   77    40.51   1401    2041   18506   2770     80.7    2.208
-12.0   78    41.45   1435    2140   19644   2866     82.1    2.152
-10.0   80    42.39   1469    2242   20849   2961     83.5    2.096
-08.0   82    43.33   1503    2347   22127   3055     84.8    2.039
-06.0   84    44.27   1537    2455   23483   3146     86.0    1.984
-04.0   85    45.22   1571    2565   24923   3235     87.2    1.931  ! Near Maximum !
-02.0   87    46.16   1605    2677   26456   3322     88.4    1.880  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0   89    47.10   1639    2793   28083   3407     89.5    1.831  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0   91    48.04   1674    2910   29815   3488     90.6    1.783  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0   93    48.98   1708    3031   31658   3567     91.6    1.737  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0   94    49.93   1742    3153   33618   3642     92.5    1.693  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0   96    50.87   1776    3278   35721   3714     93.4    1.650  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0   98    51.81   1810    3406   37960   3782     94.3    1.609  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
 
Posts: 868 | Registered: 13 November 2008Reply With Quote
sambarman338
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Thanks jpl, which pressure limit did you use? It looks like the 28,000 psi one.

On the advice of the guys on the Big Bore 458 Winchester Magnum forum, I loaded a batch today from 45 grains to 48 grains. Their loads were conservatively based on a 40,000 psi max, as they think the modern Miroku 86 is at least as strong as the Marlin.

I have some other primed brass ready to go; do you think I should start lower and pull the 47 and 48-grain loads?
 
Posts: 5119 | Location: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: 31 March 2009Reply With Quote
Lamar
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in your86 I don't think I'd worry too much until I got about 5grs heavier.
depending on your bullet weight.

748 is one of those powders that works best at or near a full case, it has disappointed me every time I have tried lowering the amount used.
 
Posts: 5001 | Location: soda springs,id | Registered: 02 April 2008Reply With Quote
jpl
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by sambarman338:
Thanks jpl, which pressure limit did you use? It looks like the 28,000 psi one.


I ran it for 28, and again for 40, and again at 28 with a mag primer. You can see the input conditions and results for the simulations posted above.

quote:
Originally posted by sambarman338:
I have some other primed brass ready to go; do you think I should start lower and pull the 47 and 48-grain loads?


As you can see, it took 54gr to get 40k. So if you think the brass and gun can take 40k, then the 48gr load should be well below that.
 
Posts: 868 | Registered: 13 November 2008Reply With Quote
sambarman338
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Thanks Lamar and jpl.

Yes, jpl, I see now that one table goes a fair bit higher. However, they all seem to wave the Dangerous-load flag at or near the 48-grain level. Do you think I should ignore that until I get close to the 40,000 level?

I did use the CCI magnum primers but I'm afraid that unless I get well beyond my comfort zone, it's hard to see any benefit, though you seem to have used the 28,000psi value for its calculation. While it does pull slightly ahead on velocity/powder yield at the end of the table, I'm not sure it ever does on pressure.

Since I will have done the initial testing with the magnum primers, I might as well press on with them but don't expect to get far.

As to whether my rifle and cases can take it, well, both are near new and have not shown any alarming pressure signs so far. The only incipient problem might be that the ejector seems to engrave a crescent on the lower side of primers. Whether that indicates pressure and a potential weakness I can't say yet but will try to pluck some out in case it happens at ejection.
 
Posts: 5119 | Location: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: 31 March 2009Reply With Quote
jpl
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by sambarman338:
...they all seem to wave the Dangerous-load flag...


That is quickload pointing out that the pressure is approaching the limit set in the case specification. Apparently the SAAMI spec for that round is 28ksi. That seems like a pretty low number to me, but I don't know much about old black powder stuff.
 
Posts: 868 | Registered: 13 November 2008Reply With Quote
sambarman338
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Thanks jpl, so that's it?

Will press on with caution.
 
Posts: 5119 | Location: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: 31 March 2009Reply With Quote
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