I'm looking for any information on how to get consistent readings with the Stoney Point Overall Cartridge Guage. I keep getting a different reading every time I push the bullet up to the grooves. My belief is that my style is inconsistent, sometimes leaving the selected bullet stuck in the barrel and sometimes leaving it in the special case. Does anybody out there use this tool with any success?

First of all, forget about the 3rd decimal place.

Next, use a wood dowel in the barrel to push out the bullet if it get stuck.

Plus, just do it several time and take the average.

Just for kicks, take a factory round and measure it (datum to case head) then turn it 90 degrees and measure again. Thee will be a difference.

A dowel is a very good suggestion, you can 'sandwich' the bullet between the Stoney Point gauge and the rifling, so you can feel it 'sticks'. Besides that, buy a comparator (also St.P.), the results will be satisfying.
Jan.

Part of the problem is likely that you're scribing the lands into the soft copper bullet. If you feel it "click" into place, then it's time to change to a new bullet. (You can still shoot the old one, but it's no longer good for measuring.) Once I measure with one, I no longer use it to measure. This measurement can show huge variances - 0.050". Do use a wooden dowell to ease the bullet into and out of position, but if it's ever stuck, then change bullets.

Recognize that some bullets, notably Speer, have very variable locations for their ogive, so measurments with the Stoney Point can be off by up to 0.013", in my experience.

I've pretty much stopped using the Stoney Point OAL system because of these issues. I do use their Cartridge Comparator for measuring the ogive on a set of calipers, but for finding the location of the lands, I prefer the old "smoking/magic markering" the bullet and looking for lands marks.

Jaywalker

Thanks all, good info. Usually I try to get a factory cartridge and use my sinclair comparitor on it and start from there. That trick doesn't work on my 250 Ackley very well, it looks like the dowel route is the way to go.

These are good tools ,well worth useing .You will find variance in even the premium bullets . Its very important to be consistant as to the pressure applied to the bullet,as well as appling some pressure to the special case at the same time measure several bullets ,take an average .It will make a difference if the gun is clean or dirty.the wieght of a cleaning rod will push the bullet and special case out with no force .You have lots of options main thing is be consistent.
Wayles

I never quite understand why people buy things to try to find the lands when knowing this has nothing to due with the seating depth that will shoot best in their rifle. Try different seating depths and when you find the one your looking for measure it with a bullet comparator.

quote:

Originally posted by Col K:
I'm looking for any information on how to get consistent readings with the Stoney Point Overall Cartridge Guage.

You are wasting your time - it will never be consistent.

quote:

I keep getting a different reading every time I push the bullet up to the grooves.

I'll let you in on a secret that ALL Stoney Point thingy owners try their best to keep quiet - that is normal for the thingys.

quote:

My belief is that my style is inconsistent, sometimes leaving the selected bullet stuck in the barrel and sometimes leaving it in the special case.

Maybe and then again, maybe not.

quote:

Does anybody out there use this tool with any success?

Some think they are and some know they aren't, just depends on who you talk to and how much time they waste messing with those fiascos.
---

If you want consistent "Ogive-to-Casehead" Seating read on. If you are determined to use the thingy, you can stop reading my post now.

1. Give the thingy to someone you dislike, or just trash it.

2. Follow the instructions found in this thread for Consistent Seating.

Best of luck to you.

quote:

Bullet94: I never quite understand why people buy things to try to find the lands when knowing this has nothing to due with the seating depth that will shoot best in their rifle. Try different seating depths and when you find the one your looking for measure it with a bullet comparator.

That's one approach, but for me it it's a little too much of a time-waster. I like to start with a 0.030" Jump To Lands, and quite often I get adequate performance and stop there. Starting from somewhere else, like the reloading manuals, ensures that I have multiple range sessions to find the sweet spot. Now, that's not all bad, but there are times I'd like to get a load set up and just practice with it, rather than tweaking the load across a bench.

quote:

Hot Core: You are wasting your time - it will never be consistent.

I'm not certain I'd go this far - I have from time to time achieved some level of consistency. Overall, though, I agree - the Stoney Point OAL Gauge does seem to have a special source of variances that I've been unable to isolate and is no longer worth the effort for me. (It's particularly difficult with a Kimber 84M - the pop-up ejector prevents the OAL Gauge from being withdrawn from the Kimber's small diameter action unless you remove the action from the stock. Again, it's just no longer worth my time.)

There are several superior minimialist methods you can find by searching AR, including Hot Core's. Just don't get him started on pressure and Case Head Expansion.


Jaywalker

quote:

Originally posted by Jaywalker:
...There are several superior minimialist methods you can find by searching AR, including Hot Core's. Just don't get him started on pressure and Case Head Expansion.

I can sum that up in this short quote (feel free to use it ):

A non-calibrated HSGS = Reloaders Pyrite(aka Fools Gold).

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
You are wasting your time - it will never be consistent.

Sometimes it is consistant and sometimes it isn't!

quote:

I'll let you in on a secret that ALL Stoney Point thingy owners try their best to keep quiet - that is normal for the thingys.

You're right, now you've let the cat out of the bag! Here's another secret, all methods give different readins when tried over and over. Bullets will still be pushed a little farther into the lands or catch before they hit the lands, with whatever method used the bullet will still be pushed to the lands (and pulled out of the lands) with different force. The cleaning rod method Hot Core mentions is just so time consuming exhausting that once you've done it, you don't want to repeat it, so you don't get any variance, cause you only did it once!

quote:

quote:
Does anybody out there use this tool with any success?

Some think they are and some know they aren't, just depends on who you talk to and how much time they waste messing with those fiascos.

Using the Stoney Point is a learned and practiced skill, much like all reloading techniques. I use 2 methods each time I measure, the Stoney Point and what I call the Reeves tool. The Reeves tool



shown here in front of the Stoney Point, is just a much more sophisticated and modern version of the cleaning rod method HC mentioned (and a lot more accurate too ). You just
1. close the bolt of the gun
2. loosen both set screws
3. insert tool and push down to bolt face
4. lock back set screw
5. take bolt out
6. insert bullet gently down to lands (the Stoney Point makes an excellent tool for doing this, as it would in the cleaning rod method also)
7. insert tool in to gently touch bullet tip
8. lock front set screw
9. measure between collars

My point is that the Stoney Point is so easy to use that you can do it on 5 different bullets in the same time it would take you to do one of the cleaning rod method measurements once.

The trick to the Stoney Point is
1. leave the bullet set back in the modified case about 1/2" (try to use the same distance everytime) and lock the knurl nut holding the rod
2. get everything in place and make sure the modified case is seated firmly into the chamber.
3. unlock the knurl nut and with a light but firm motion use your trigger finger to push the rod in. Imagine yourself pulling the trigger on gun where it is set at about 2 1/2 pounds and use the same pressure.
4. lock the knurl nut and never do that bumping back and forth thing.
5. repeat on a couple of other bullets. For a while if you do it on.....say.....5 bullets you will get the exact same measurement for 3 of them. After you have practiced some that will change to 4 out of 5 of them or all of them.

It is a good tool that is very useful but it takes some practice to learn to use successfully (just like most reloading methods). Some people just don't have any patience with modern gadgets

quote:

woods: ... Imagine yourself pulling the trigger on gun where it is set at about 2 1/2 pounds and use the same pressure.

There's no question that's the key - it's just very hard to apply consistent pressure.

For my new rifle, I'm planning to try malm's method of seating the bullet in the case pointy end down into the sized but empty case, then letting the base define the Zero Land point.

Jaywalker

I use the Stoney Point as well and it took a little playing around with to get a procedure you can rely on as for getting the same pressure each time but I've found within 5 readings I will be close enough to have 3 readings the same and that is the reading I will start with, knowing I will be playing with seating depths in that range anyway so saves alot of time and fast.

There's a part 2 to this.

I can take the Stoney Point "datum bushing" and using a caliper, measure a factory cartridge. Rotate it just a little and get a slightly different measurement.

It all depends on the shape of the bullet, and how straight you hold the cartridge while doing he measurement.

I'll keep using my Stoney Point as it the easiest to use.

As far out to seat the bullets, I can duplicate from sessions to session.

It makes me think of a time I tried to set carburetor float without a gauge. It didn't happen (too high or too low) and I had to buy that gauge in order to set it correctly.

In another situation, I had some misfires on a new rifle. Checking everything, I discovered that the sizing die I was using, sized the cases about .020 undersize. Something I couldn't have found with measuring the shoulder of the case.

Here's where most of the inconsistencies occur.

quote:
Bullet94: I never quite understand why people buy things to try to find the lands when knowing this has nothing to due with the seating depth that will shoot best in their rifle. Try different seating depths and when you find the one your looking for measure it with a bullet comparator.
Jaywalker Quote – “That's one approach, but for me it it's a little too much of a time-waster. I like to start with a 0.030" Jump To Lands, and quite often I get adequate performance and stop there. Starting from somewhere else, like the reloading manuals, ensures that I have multiple range sessions to find the sweet spot. Now, that's not all bad, but there are times I'd like to get a load set up and just practice with it, rather than tweaking the load across a bench.â€


I agree if your not trying to find the seating depth that shoots best just pick a distance and go with it.

"Here's where most of the inconsistencies occur."

Are you saying (by that photo) that it's the SP comparator that gives inconstancy’s or the No name digital calipers? I have the Stony point OAL gauge but I bought a Sinclair Bullet comparator so I didn’t have to tie up the calipers for just the comparator

quote:

Are you saying (by that photo) that it's the SP comparator that gives inconstancy’s or the No name digital calipers?

Neither. It's the operator. Just a slight deviation in keeping the cartridge straight will give a wrong reading.

And my "no name" caliper works just fine

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
...it takes some practice to learn to use successfully ...

Rumor has it that it helps "if" you:

1. Own your own Still.
2. Believe in the Easter Bunny.

Hey Bill Mc, Thank you for that link. I happen to know a guy who would be interested in checking that site out. He is in the process of converting all his vehicles to Diesel so he can burn "Used Grease" in them.

The Ethanol would fit right in his long range goals, especially with the Government reducing his TAXES for making it.