I just finished building my first AR15 and plan on taking it to the range to see what she will do this weekend. I have loaded for a few 223 bolt guns, and was wondering in what way, if any, is reloading for an AR15 different than loading for a bolt gun. Specifically:

1. Should I apply a crimp to the bullet? I am not worried about bullet setback due to recoil, but am worried that setback might occur as the round hits the feedramp.

2. Will using near max loads harm the action or receiver in any way? ( Had a friend who screwed up a Browning BAR that way, so just curious)

quote:

. Specifically:

1. Should I apply a crimp to the bullet?

NO, not necessary if bullet has enough normal neck tension

I am not worried about bullet setback due to recoil, but am worried that setback might occur as the round hits the feedramp.


No again if bullet is seated with adequate neck tension

2. Will using near max loads harm the action or receiver in any way? ( Had a friend who screwed up a Browning BAR that way, so just curious)

What is amximum in a bolt rifle will most likely be OVER MAXIMUM in the AR platform. Work up your loads very carefully. Wear in a properly maintained rifle firing quality balanced reloads will not be a major factor.

I would add that wear can be accelerated by firing loads which are not matched to the gas system and it's pressure time curve requirements. Extra heavy bullets with slow for cartridge powders can cause function issues. These can be molified somewhat by playing with the buffer weights and spring systems. The AR is a wonderful rifle to shoot and load for. It is not a difficult rifle if you understand the operating principles. I have not required any special techniques to great great accuracy and reliability from reloads, and brass in generally not chewed up in the process. Good luck and good shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by molar1:
I just finished building my first AR15 and plan on taking it to the range to see what she will do this weekend. I have loaded for a few 223 bolt guns, and was wondering in what way, if any, is reloading for an AR15 different than loading for a bolt gun. Specifically:

1. Should I apply a crimp to the bullet? I am not worried about bullet setback due to recoil, but am worried that setback might occur as the round hits the feedramp.

2. Will using near max loads harm the action or receiver in any way? ( Had a friend who screwed up a Browning BAR that way, so just curious)

1. A taper crimp will often make a 223/AR load shoot more accurately. I wouldn't use a roll crimp but I taper crimp (requires special die) all of my AR loads.

2. I have lost count of how many thousand "Near Max" loads I've shot through my AR's. I've yet to have a single problem.

3. The only real issue I've run into loading for AR's is when using once fired brass (I've got 15,000rds or so of it). You have to be sure and size it down far enough. One of my AR's has a particularly tight chamber and won't chamber anything that's not minimum spec sized. Check your sized cases in your gun before loading a bunch of them only to find out that they won't chamber properly.........................DJ

Dlpaintles, I plan on using once-fired brass as well since I have quite a bit of it. I have a set of Redding full length sizer dies. To set up the die, I generally run the die down until it contacts the shellholder when the ram is in its uppermost position. I then lower the ram and turn the die down about 1/4 turn. Will using this setup be adequate to return the brass to appropriate SAAMI specs or do I need to invest in a small base die? The gun is a Rock River with 5.56 NATO chamber(not wylde).

You might want one of these to check headspace. –

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=477756

You might find this link interesting and there is data from Sierra for AR’s too –

http://www.6mmbr.com/223rem.html

quote:

djpaintles
1. A taper crimp will often make a 223/AR load shoot more accurately. I wouldn't use a roll crimp but I taper crimp (requires special die) all of my AR loads.

I thought a taper crimp was only used to remove the flare from belling cases which I don’t do in my AR. Could you explain why you taper crimp? I also thought that you can over taper crimp and reduce neck tension. What are your thoughts on this?

quote:

Originally posted by molar1:
Dlpaintles, I plan on using once-fired brass as well since I have quite a bit of it. I have a set of Redding full length sizer dies. To set up the die, I generally run the die down until it contacts the shellholder when the ram is in its uppermost position. I then lower the ram and turn the die down about 1/4 turn. Will using this setup be adequate to return the brass to appropriate SAAMI specs or do I need to invest in a small base die? The gun is a Rock River with 5.56 NATO chamber(not wylde).

I personally have never come across anyone who ever needed a small base die for 5.56/.223. Your method should be perfectly fine.

Lee's Factory Crimp Die Link is a wonderful tool for reloading AR cartridges (especially in progressive setups)

I can't really imagine how a taper crimp would reduce neck tension but maybe there's something I don't know. Generally the somewhat increase it but most of all make it more uniform.
I use a Redding taper crimp die on my single stage press and the one that comes with a Dillon die set on my Dillon 650. I definately think that it's worthwhile.

Your plan of bottoming the shell holder + 1/4 turn will work most of the time. I have one AR that has a very tight chamber and that doesn't work with once fired RP brass that I bought. It had been fired in a machine gun and I guess is a little longer than normal. I'm going to pick up a small base die and see if it helps for this one gun. For most others your plan will work fine but again, check the sized cases to make sure they chamber in your rifle 1st. A Wilson chamber guage is a good investment to help with this also........................DJ

Thanks for the info. I followed the Bullet's link to the 6mm BR forums and read an article about the AR15 and slam fires. They suggested using only CCI or Rem primers when loading for an AR. Supposedly, federal primers are too soft and have too thin of a cup, leading to problems with slam fires. I have several thousand fed 200 primers laying around and wanted to use them, but now I am having second thought. Do ya'll think it's safe to use the feds, or do I need to get CCI's. If I need the CCI, should I get the 400,450, or 41? Thanks

If you are shooting a full auto M-4 or race gun that you are going to be shooting a large round count fast you might consider the switch to CCI's for autoloaders.
If you are loading for sporter shooting etc. I'd load up a couple hundred with the federals and give them a go. I seriously doubt you'll have any problems. The federals are a little softer but I've shot them before and never had a slam fire.
I did switch to WW's because Dillon said they ran through their primer tubes better. If I were you I'd probably use up the federals first........................DJ

IIRC
The SAAMI pressure spec for the 223 is 50,000 PSI and the spec for the 5.56mm is 58,000 PSI.

The AR platform was designed for the 5.56mm load.

Curious as to why some folks feel the need to " Max " out loads ?.

I find more times than not middle to upper end of middle or low end of Max if one prefers is the most accurate !.

Yea Yea there are always exceptions . I load for near 30 different calibers and only 1 of my weapons prefers a Max load . A 45/70 Sharps go figure !.

AR 15 25.5 - 26.5 grains BL-C2 X 55 grain projectile .five holes a dime will cover at 100 Yd.s more times than not . With a 2.8 X 10 power Simmons Atec scope . Not exactly a target scope !!. If anybody uses this load they know it's on the LOW end !.

Heres the odd part of this my AR isn't supposed to like anything lighter than 60 grains and all data points to 75 grains !. Well Sarge surprise surprise !.

It will not shoot as of this message any thing heavier than 70 grains worth a shit !. 62 & 68 grains are it's best groups but no where near the consistency of the 55 grain . Stack em and rack em . Good Luck ...

Will it suffice to check that a resized casing fits in the chamber or do I need to invest in a Wilson headspace gauge? After reading about out of battery kabooms, I am a little paranoid now.

Some powders actually burn more efficiently at the higher end of the pressure scale though most are at the slower end not the medium burning powders that the 223 uses.
I'm not particularly a hot-rodder and don't try and stretch the limits but I don't see a lot of sense underloading rounds either. If I want 308 velocities I don't buy a 300 mag and load it down I'll just use a 308. By the same token if I want 300 Mag velocities I won't make my 308's try and get there.
Some of the loads I use in the 223 were for shooting high-power competition. The 600yd line isn't the smartest place for light-loads if you plan on winning.
Also AR-15s have sights calibrated to a military load. In some situations it's nice to have handloads that will match the trajectory of the Military loads, makes the numbers on the A-2 sight mean something.
For a Varmint shooting AR precision is more important than trajectory so just load for maximum accuracy within the limits.

Molar1, As for the Wilson Case guage I think for $20 it's going to be worth your peace of mind to buy one. I reloaded for AR's for years without one but for $20 I'd buy another one if I lost the one I had...........................DJ

djpaintles

I believe the idea is that you can over taper crimp and reduce case tension. If you taper crimp to much the bullet will be reduced in diameter along with the case, but the case will spring back some and the bullet won’t causing less case tension on the bullet.

Reducing case diameter before seating a bullet will determine the amount of neck or case tension along with the brass thickness. When sizing the case neck for semi-auto rifles using bushing dies you measure the loaded round at the neck and then use a bushing .002 or .003 less in diameter than the loaded round (some use bushings even smaller) to ensure proper neck tension (prevent bullet setback) with NO crimp.

molar1

If your sized cases won’t chamber then you will have to use a small base die. I think most people only use their regular full-length sizing die and then don’t fully resize the case. I only resize enough to bump the shoulder back .002 or .003. The RCBS precision mic is used to make the measurement.

I have used Federal primers with no problems but I now use Rem 7 1/2 just encase.

I only crimp if the bullet has a cannelure using the Lee Factory Crimp die.

quote:

Originally posted by Bullet94:
djpaintles

I believe the idea is that you can over taper crimp and reduce case tension. If you taper crimp to much the bullet will be reduced in diameter along with the case, but the case will spring back some and the bullet won’t causing less case tension on the bullet.

That makes sense, the bullet not springing back as much as the case will. I seriously doubt that I'm crimping hard enough to deform the bullet but it might be worth pulling a couple and Mic'ing them to see.
Even if it does squash the bullet a little I'll still taper crimp them because I've done them with and without the taper crimp and the crimped ones are more accurate.

If you want to use bushing dies on an autoloader be sure and use the body bump bushing dies so that they chamber smoothly. I have several sets of the bushing dies and so far I've not seen that they reduce case runout enough to justify their extra expense and hassle in most cases..................................DJ

I've never used a Wilson headspace gauge before. If the case fits in the gauge correctly, then it is guaranteed to chamber? My chamber is 5.56 NATO

quote:

djpaintles
Even if it does squash the bullet a little I'll still taper crimp them because I've done them with and without the taper crimp and the crimped ones are more accurate.

What kind of group sizes are you getting crimped vs non-crimped? What bullets and weight are you shooting?

quote:

Originally posted by molar1:
I just finished building my first AR15 and plan on taking it to the range to see what she will do this weekend. I have loaded for a few 223 bolt guns, and was wondering in what way, if any, is reloading for an AR15 different than loading for a bolt gun. Specifically:

1. Should I apply a crimp to the bullet? I am not worried about bullet setback due to recoil, but am worried that setback might occur as the round hits the feedramp.

2. Will using near max loads harm the action or receiver in any way? ( Had a friend who screwed up a Browning BAR that way, so just curious)

No crimp is needed. Load for accuracy, not max loads. The higher the pressure you load to, the more wear and tear on the rifle. Standard FLRS dies should work just fine.

quote:

Originally posted by Bullet94:

quote:

djpaintles
Even if it does squash the bullet a little I'll still taper crimp them because I've done them with and without the taper crimp and the crimped ones are more accurate.

What kind of group sizes are you getting crimped vs non-crimped? What bullets and weight are you shooting?

I currently load for 9 different 223's. I load bullets from 52gr SMK to 80gr VLD's. Group sizes run for 1/4 MOA to 1 1/2 MOA depending on the particular rifle. It's been a while so the exact group size details are fuzzy but as I recall I had a gun that would occasionally shoot a 3/4" group but then would shoot a 1 1/4" group. Taper crimping them settled the gun down to a more consistant 3/4" size group. My loads were good enough to shoot Master Class scores at the 600 yard line in High Power Competition.
I'm always willing to look for ways to improve loads, but sometimes it's easier to mess up a good thing when working with a well proven formula.
I think you might also find more consistant velocity SD's when you taper crimp............................DJ

I think we would all agree that consistency is the Key . If group sizes are tight without crimping why bother . Visa Versa if not . Nothing to lose by trying it either way .

Some weapons prefer different projectile weight as opposed to others .

Case in point ; Two Bushmaster target A2's one prefers anything under 70 grains , the other is happy with just about anything !. It how ever will not group as tightly with lighter projectiles as the other .

The answers to life are the questions we ask .
Shoot straight know your target . ...

A recent experience with AR loading;

A shooting buddy was having a lot of problems with case head seperations with his reloads. I gave him my case guage made by frankford arsenal that measures shoulder to head dimensions, as well as loaded OAL length to go in AR mags. ALL his loads fell .010 UNDER the minimum cut. He said he was following die set-up directions to have the shell holder touch the die bottom. He had to back his die off some to get them to arrive mid way between min and max. Frankford arsenal no longer makes that guage, So he got a wilson guage, no more head seps.

I see no reason to load way under max for an AR. For target purposes @ 100 yds, maybe, but for general plinking at plates out to 300 yds, I want full power loads.

I am a simpleton !. I load for accuracy !.

Dropped an Elk a few years back using 7 MM Rem mag . One shot 175 grain Sierra , he fell to his knees never ran . Was 225 yd. the load was 300 Fps under max velocity !. I wonder if the Elk knew or cared !!.

One of the regular members has a saying about
" Accuracy Kills " . and everything else is !!.

Shoot straight Know your target !. ...

I used to load just for accuracy. Then I bought a chronograph, I was disappointed in how far off my velocities were from the manuals. Maybe it's just an excuse for more range time but I prefer to use loads that give both good velocity and top accuracy You can have both............................DJ

If I'm reading the wind OK my Crimped, good velocity 223 loads don't shoot too bad. This one of the 1st groups I shot with one of my AR's:




This was shot at 300yds. With Iron sites.....................................DJ

DJPaintles ... damn! That's FINE shooting.

I load .223 primarily for the AR/M16 platform in barrel lengths from 11.5 to 20" on a Dillon 1050.

I very much like the taper crimp approach. I tend to use LC brass and do measure the amount of crimp to be consistent between setups. Brass life has been excellent, but I toss it after six firings as the cost of a transferable 16 lower is outta sight and I won't risk one.