Years ago I built a 221 Remington Fireball rifle on a Sako action.

The kids used it for quite a while, then they wanted something bigger, I cannot remember what, so they gave me teh rifle back.

I remember developing subsonic loads for it using some bulk bought bullets, which we have run out of.

Those loads were developed at 50 yards.

I thought of working up loads for it, subsonic, at 100 yards.

I loaded a couple of rounds with Alliant Power Pistol - 3.0 grains, and Bill Brawand 52 grain match bullets.

I got a velocity of 859 fps, but teh bullets were hitting the target sideways. Not enough velocity to stabilize them.

I then loaded the Nosler 40 grain Ballistic Tip, with the same 3.0 grains of powder.

The bullet got stuck in the barrel!

I don't like to use a rod to get stuck bullets out, so I put 6 grains in a primed case, with a tissue plug, and fired it to get the bullet out.

I loaded another 52 grain bullet, with 3.0 grains of powder and fired it.

It had a velocity of 843 fps.

Now I was a bit confused.

So to add to that, I loaded another 40 grains Nosler Ballistic with 3.0 grains of powder.

Sure enough, it got stuck in the barrel??!!

One more 52 grain was loaded and fired. 851 fps.

What is going on here?

One would have thought the lighter bullet would have less friction, and would go even faster.

Both bullets were Molly coated.

Anyone who thinks knows what is going on, I would love to hear it!!

try a crimp on the light bullets.
they are out running the gas volume until they get stuck.
if you can build the pressure higher before they go down the barrel you should be able to accelerate them enough to pop them out.

I don't know what is going on with the 40 and 52 grain bullets you used, but from different manufacturers possibly a difference in diameter. Some years ago just to test a theory I mic'd three different brands of .30 cal 150 gn projectiles and was surprised to find the basic diameter varied for each brand. I guess this would influence the level of barrel friction, and pressure levels generated after firing.

quote:

Originally posted by Lamar:
try a crimp on the light bullets.
they are out running the gas volume until they get stuck.
if you can build the pressure higher before they go down the barrel you should be able to accelerate them enough to pop them out.

Maybe this is the answer? Is it possible that the primer is starting the bullet before the powder lights?

I'm thinking it could even be a harder jacket material and that the bullet isn't expanding enough to full obturate, or maybe not fast enough and some of the gas is getting by before it does.... just my guess

Where did the hot gas go???? roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Where did the hot gas go???? roger

It pushed the bullet down the barrel, but not enough to get it out??

I tried 3.1 grains, and all bullet got out of the barrel.

It is one of those perplexing questions one does not seem to able to find an answer to.

Last week I was testing our 280 grain 338 caliber bullets in a Sako TRG 42 rifle.

99.5 grains of H870 gave me a velocity of 2798 fps

101.0 grains gave me a velocity of 2767 fps!!

31 fps LESS??

This is not new. As I have seen it happen many times with large capacity cases.

My friend Roy Vincent, who loves these big bores, had exactly the same experience with large capacity cases.

This defies all logic, but happens.

Saeed:
Those last quoted big bore loads were they from the same can of powder? IF not, likely a different mix the powders were made Re: lot numbers. IF from the same can, hard telling, likely a tighter neck in the case built up more pressure. Try using the same piece of brass for both loads and see what they read.

Slow vel loads, sounds like you're just to the breaking point on pressure and need a touch more powder.

IF n when you start playing games with the tiny cases, be mighty careful with powder charges. I have a 5.7 necked down to .17x28mm. Loaded n fired the same case ten times with 10.0 gr H110, fired just fine, upped to 10.1, fired twice fine. Upped it to 10.2gr and blew the gun up! Be damned careful with those little cases.

George

Simple. Lighter bullet gave less pressure and the bullet got stuck. Not a matter of friction differential. Where did the gas go? It expanded all it could until it equalized to atmospheric pressure in the bore.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Simple. Lighter bullet gave less pressure and the bullet got stuck. Not a matter of friction differential. Where did the gas go? It expanded all it could until it equalized to atmospheric pressure in the bore.

May be close but Not hardly . roger

I dont have an answer, but I will give you tip you wont regret.
Trailboss is the best powder made for light loads like this, and it fills the case.
I get 2300fps with a 22-250, or 243 with 40-55 grain bullets. 15 grains.
I have used it from 17 rem,204,243,6mm so far, so a bit bigger case, but it wiill work in yours.. Start low, and work up.
I will bet your accuracy will improve.
15 grains fills up to the neck on a 243.
3/4 inch accuracy. 100yrds
Do your own work, but I think 3-6 grains would do well in your 221.

Had a bad batch of sm rifle primers years ago. Many failures to ignite in 2 different super redhawk .454s.

The primer company blamed my brass. The loads were put up in new Starline which have about the most uniform primer pockets aside from Lapua. Took sometimes 4 pin strikes to achieve ignition.

I typically use a Sinclair primer pkt uniforming tool made of carbide. The Starline brass I've had is always on the money for primer pkt depth.

Tech guy insisted their primer could not be at fault. I own a Starrett depth mic and tested 15-20 pockets and found no variation.

Wound up pulling about 400 assembled loads and depriming the brass. The primer co Tech Guy promised twice that he would pick-up and replace the 1k primers with a new brick; never did...

I quit using that brand of primer and eventually oiled the primers and tossed them.


As far as your Fireball, seems likely there was component failure. No way you should get a lodged bullet with molyed bullet in rifle that shot molyed bullets in any quantity.

Never had a primer fail before the Casull event. Did get a lodged bullet in my 4" Python while running a cylinder pretty fast. Cadence felt off to me and luckily I examined the gun.

I did have some cheap lightning ammo lodge a round in a 10/22 my 10yr old son was shooting at the range. Bulged the barrel when another round impacted the blocking 40gr solid. Quit buying that stuff too.

It is my opinion that quality control for ammunition and components is very far reduced from what it once was.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Simple. Lighter bullet gave less pressure

because its lesser bearing surface has a weaker seal in an older bore/throat and, the lighter bullet will require less pressure to build in the chamber to cause it to begin to move down the bore.

There really is no other possible explanation.. Because if the pressure level was the same as the powder charge might suggest, the bullet would have exited.

I like Lamars suggestion. And seating the bullet out as far as possible may help as well.

quote:

The primer co Tech Guy promised twice that he would pick-up and replace the 1k primers with a new brick; never did...

A major case of penny wise and pound foolish.

Seems the pressure curve was different with the 40 gr vs the 52 gr. The 40 gr bullet started moving easier and stayed ahead of the pressure in which the volume in the barrel eventually consumed. The 52 grain bullet was slower to start to move... hence more powder was ignited simultaneously which gave a greater starting pressure. I am not very good at explaining things but that's my take.

God Bless, Louis

just what dcpd said without adequate pressure smokless powder just burns slowly

Easy answer is to just re-barrel to .300Blk and go shoot it.