I have been annealing my once fired 303-25 cases and noticed that thes cases show no visible sign of being fired! The primer has a nice presure indication but the case itself looks unfired. I cannot see the pressure ring but I can measure it - just. Now, according to the reloading tables that particular load should be at least warm by 303 Brit standards. (The same case brand in 303 Brit does show the pressure ring). I went up to the present loading because of lack of pressure at the recommended loads. At first glance, the primer shows the expected flattening compared to the previous loading for the increase in powder charge.

This is now the secong 303 case I have seen today that does not show the pressure ring. The other one was a PMP 303 Brit factory loaded case with more primer flattening than my load. It too shows no sign of having being fired. Not even the shoulder being moved forward (unless it was fired in a very tight chamber which would be found where? The only one known to me is my Dad's and it did not fire those cases).

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Originally posted by 303Guy:
I have been annealing my once fired 303-25 cases and noticed that thes cases show no visible sign of being fired! The primer has a nice presure indication but the case itself looks unfired. I cannot see the pressure ring but I can measure it - just. Now, according to the reloading tables that particular load should be at least warm by 303 Brit standards. (The same case brand in 303 Brit does show the pressure ring). I went up to the present loading because of lack of pressure at the recommended loads. At first glance, the primer shows the expected flattening compared to the previous loading for the increase in powder charge.

This is now the secong 303 case I have seen today that does not show the pressure ring. The other one was a PMP 303 Brit factory loaded case with more primer flattening than my load. It too shows no sign of having being fired. Not even the shoulder being moved forward (unless it was fired in a very tight chamber which would be found where? The only one known to me is my Dad's and it did not fire those cases).

What gauge are you using? I have been thinking about the one made from RCBS. It seems to be the one out there with the most uses. But I also like the new consintristy gauge made by Hornady put out about a month ago.

I don't use any guage. It is time I did! Actually, I am planning on making myself a set of sizer and seating dies that hold the body securely and seat or size via a rigid guide. In fact, you have just given me an idea!

A fired .303 case without a huge pressure ridge is like a Big Foot sighting.

The #4s that I have checked have a chamber that measures .460 at the base. Most US brass measures .450 to .452. Factory loads some times seperate on the first shot. All in all a piece of engineered crap for a reloader.
Once up a time both Remington and Win .30-40 Krag measured .455 and were much better. If you have the means to form the ehad of .444 Marlin brass from .465 down to .458 you can make brass that will really hang in there.
Have you sectioned one of the cases that did not show the huge offset at the pressure ring to see if it was thicker?

BTW I use Winchester .303 cases in a 6.5X53.5R Dutch Mannlicher. The Dutch Mannlicher's chamber measures .453. The Winchester brass measures .451 to .452. When fired in the 6.5X53R the firing pin dent is perfectly centered and there is no pressure ring swelling. It is still odd to pick up one of those cases marked .303 and not find a huge pressure ring after firing.

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It is still odd to pick up one of those cases marked .303 and not find a huge pressure ring after firing.

This is what I thought. But my 303-25 has the same thing but that chamber is tighter. This case was not a range pick up - I have a whole jar full of them. Being berdan primed I suspect they were military but one never knows - they could have been sporting rounds but why would PMP load sporting rounds in a berdan case when they make and sell boxer primed ammo? I have a batch of PMP boxer cases so I should compare them for capacity. I'll split one of those berdan cases too. There can't be any problems with the brass quality iether as I have been able to expand one to .425.

Perhaps I'm missing something but why would you exspect to get a pressure ring in a well reamed, tight wildcat chamber? Am I missing this completely? roger

Saw a half hour Travel Log show on New Zealand today. Very interesting and beautiful. Saw all kinds of interesting stuff including Parrots that came right up to the photographer biting at his camera and Himilayan Tar jumping around on a glacier. Seemed like the photographer was very cautious to "avoid" showing all the Game New Zealand has. Did show a few sheep with dogs herding them around.

Still enjoyed the show and could visualize 303Guy scaling mountains that go pretty much straight up with his 303Brit in his teeth.

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Originally posted by bartsche:
Perhaps I'm missing something....

I'm having trouble with the entire vein. As I recall, the problem with case stretching in a 303 is due to the flexibility of the Enfield bolt lockup. Doesn't have anything to do with the brass.

Nice looking annealing job.

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Originally posted by Winchester 69:

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Originally posted by bartsche:
Perhaps I'm missing something....

I'm having trouble with the entire vein. As I recall, the problem with case stretching in a 303 is due to the flexibility of the Enfield bolt lockup. Doesn't have anything to do with the brass.

Nice looking annealing job.

If a chamber is .010 larger than the brass you will get a huge offset at the pressure ring, regardless of the action type. So it does have some thing to do with the brass and how well it fits the chamber. 6.5 Arisaka chambers are also larger than the ammo by about the same amount. In spite of a very strong lock up the Arisaka will also give rapid case head seperations.

303guy may have a 25-303 chamber designed to fit the brass as manufactured. The Lee Enfield chamber design is huge compared to the ammo leading to a lot of radial stretching. Add this to the stretching caused by the springy receiver and you have a lot of head separations.

This is porno.
I have always wanted a 25-303 and run it hot.

Send me a reamer and dies, and I will figure it all out.

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Originally posted by tnekkcc:
This is porno.
I have always wanted a 25-303 and run it hot.

Send me a reamer and dies, and I will figure it all out.

I could send you a casting of an Lee-Enfield chamber, and an Arisaka chamber and a case for each. But this has been written about a couple of decades ago in Handloader Magazine.

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Originally posted by Hot Core:
... and could visualize 303Guy scaling mountains that go pretty much straight up with his 303Brit in his teeth.

Oh, if I was young enough I would!
Those parrots will disassemble a whole car if given the chance. They are literally the worlds smartest parrot (and bird)!

Yes, my 303-25 does seem to have a decent chamber. The thing about the 303 Brit case in question is that it should have had a pressure ring! I don't know who gave them to me nor in which rifle they were fired. The only other cases I have seen with no sign of firing were 8x57 factory. Those would have been fired in a military rifle but we know they are loaded to mild pressures and the brass is quite strong too. That 303Brit case shows a lot more pressure on the primer than did the 8x57 case. (And the shoulder had not moved forward - it just surprized me).

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Originally posted by 303Guy:
I have been annealing my once fired 303-25 cases and noticed that thes cases show no visible sign of being fired! The primer has a nice presure indication but the case itself looks unfired. I cannot see the pressure ring but I can measure it - just.

303Guy, the shiny ring and measuring case expansion at the web area are good indicators. But just to be on the safe side, I'd recommend you do the "bent paperclip" test on the inside of the case web. If you feel a catch, there might be a problem developing.

Just an easy simple check to make sure nothing is going on.

If not, don't mess with success!

I haven't had a head separation for so long now that I don't do the paper clip check anymore. But these cases are not going to be reloaded - they are for making dummy rounds. (Berdan primed).

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I have been annealing my once fired 303-25 cases

303, your cases look fine to me but the annealing color of the neck itself looks to be quite a bit over done. Did you heat it to a red glow? If so, that's much too hot. It burns out some of the zinc in the alloy and leaves the neck dead soft, poor for proper bullet tension and good accuracy.

The body, at and below the shoulder has a nice shiney look but the neck itself is near black and looks dead flat. Proper annealing will retain the surface shine on the necks too.

You have a neat wildcat. Good luck!

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... the neck itself looks to be quite a bit over done.

Thanks, Jim C. <>< . I do find it difficult to see the 'dull red' I am looking for. Would the fact that the necks were 'dirty' to start of with contribute or give the appearance of overheat? The pic was of one that I thought I had overheated, so ... mmmm.

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Proper annealing will retain the surface shine on the necks too.

OK, thanks - that will help!

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Originally posted by 303Guy:
...They are literally the worlds smartest parrot (and bird)!

Do you lightly fry them and then bake in Cream of Mushroom soup?

Obviously larger than a Dove and smaller than a Duck. Four might make a good meal.
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Try doing the Annealing in a Dark Room. It is easier to notice when the dull red glow on the Case Neck appears - then into the water.
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Some real old Cases I've had from time to time seem to have "hardened" just setting around. Not sure if it was due to Ammonia Vapors in the house (Windex, cleaning products, etc.) or what. Still shoot some other real old Cases and they appear good as new.

Those parots are quite big. They have a 'laughing' sound they make and sometimes the things they do makes it look like they are actually laughing! Like them throwing stones down a skree slope at hikers below.

Trouble with the 'darkened room' is the light from the flame itself. I find it takes a hell of a lot of heat to get the temp when the cases stand in water. A better flame without the bright light blue at the base might be in order.

I took one of these cases and annealed it, then I set the shoulder back by about 2mm. Then, I opened it up to 425 and then I resized it back down to 303 and set the shoulder back again! Apart from the mouth being no longer square, it looks prette good! I'm going to reanneal it and do it all again to see how much abuse a case can withstand! Oh yes, there is a very noticeable do-nut where the original neck/shoulder junction was. This same do-nut exists on the 425 case too. I could use that as a seating stop.

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This is porno.
I have always wanted a 25-303 and run it hot.

The cheap and easy way to get a tight 303 Brit chamber is to fit a No4 barrel onto a No1 action. The chamber has to be set back half a thread or so and this tightens the chamber quite nicely.

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As I recall, the problem with case stretching in a 303 is due to the flexibility of the Enfield bolt lockup.

Winchester 69, I don't get any case stretch at all. I trim my case only once to square them up and that's how they stay. But, I lube the loaded cases and do not load hot. No need to in such an adequate cartridge (I call 180gr at 2450fps quite adequate. I shot a big red deer with a 180gr bullet doing about 1900fps at impact and it was very adequate. Muzzle velocity of that one was around 2300fps and range was 160m). And I headspace on the shoulder - that's important. My bolt closes firmly on the loaded round. Apparently, the flexi-action thing comes into play when one goes over a certain pressure threshold at which point groups open up. I have never been there. I think too, that it is only the compression of the bolt that is an issue since it is supported from the lugs rearward. Forward stretching of the action would be an inertia thing plus the forward thrust of the shoulder area of the case. I understand there is quite a resonance thing going on in the Lee Enfield action when fired. All I know is they are a lot more accurate than one would expect just looking at them!

I thought that everything in load books might be wrong, but I checked Ackley's statement that Enfield actions are stretchy with a calculation.

The bolt body is hollow with thin walls and locks in the rear. The bolt compresses enough by itself to stretch brass at high pressures.

I resolved to solder shims on the bolt face and shoot wimpy loads with slow powder in Enfields.

I would rather have the 25-303 in a 91/30, 1885, or Ruger #1.

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The bolt body is hollow with thin walls and locks in the rear. The bolt compresses enough by itself to stretch brass at high pressures.

They are thin walled! But there is the locking lug/bolt guide to add some material thickness. I wonder whether this asymmetrical material distribution is what causes inaccuracy at higher pressure loads? Anyway, not being sure what you mean by 'wimpy' and I kinda suspect your pressure standards are higher than mine, the Lee Enfield still has plenty oomph! at pressures that won't stretch the brass. Loads at 43,000 CUP seem pretty good for both accuracy and case life. The action won't break at 47,000 CUP - no need to go that high anyway. Unless of course, someone just happens to want to see just what the things can take! Nothing wrong with that! In fact, I wouldn't mind if 'someone' would just happen to feel like posting the results of his Action Destruction Studies!
With pictures.

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Thanks, Jim C. <>< . I do find it difficult to see the 'dull red' I am looking for.

I like to anneal in a darkened room (not blacked out, just dimmed!). As soon as I see any glow at all, I drop them into a water bucket. Seems to work okay, necks last a long time but they aren't dead soft so there is still a bit of normal springback in them. ??