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I am only doing 2200 fps with my 220gr Sierra handloads. I am loading 46grs of H-414. What powder would be the best to safely achieve 2400 fps muzzle velocity? Do I just "heap" in enough H-414 to get that?  There is data on another forum that lists factory ammo at 2454fps MV, with the same 220gr Sierra BTSP. I am hoping that other experienced reloaders will be able to help me out!  | ||
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It seems to me that many velocities have changed now that chronographs are within reach of the "common" man. That said, the ammunition companies have access to powders and loading techniques that are NOT available to that same common man. Don't limit your challenges . . . Challenge your limits | |||
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TCLouis the ammo companies "recipes" may be secret but they are not magic. If they can do it, then any reloader through trial and error should be able to safely duplicate their velocities. I am looking for a short-cut or starting point to that end, just hoping someone else has some info I could use. Failing that, I will study my manuals to figure out the powders that will most likely get the results I desire. FYI, I also intend to do some bullet testing. I am going to hit the local recycling center and get bales of newspaper from them. I will construct a box from 3/4" plywood to hold the (wet) newspaper then shoot into it with various bullets, various calibers, from several ranges etc... There is stuff I need to learn. | |||
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D, I've been there and done that with my 8mm Mauser. That bullet would not reliably expand on deer at 8x57 velocities! - It would zip through without expanding most of the time. That is one real tuff bullet, designed for 8mm Remmington magnum velocities not the 8mm Mauser. I switched to the 200 grain Speer HotCores (HCs) and they worked well. ________ Ray | |||
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About 20 years ago I picked up a box of Hornady 220s at the Portland gunshow and started developing a load using IMR4895. That was back when I also still believed in CHE. I was using once fored WW cases in a nice sporterized M98 of early WWII manufacture. It was a 68 degree day and chronograph was a Oehler M35P. My notes say; "45.5 gr, no head expansion on 3 cases, pressure ring expansion at +.0031", velocity was 2385 fps/SD 16/ ES 30. 46 gr, no case head expansion on 3 cases, Pressure ring expansion .0033", velocity 2417 fps. I went to 46.5 gr as there had been no CHE yet . 1 shot of test blew primer and bolt was very hard to open. Brass had flowed into the extractor groove. Smoke was curling up out of the action. Velocity was 2385 fps. Pulled the two other bullets in that string and they had exactly 46.5 gr of 4895 in them." I did not shoot the other two shots obviously. I figured a safe max load to be 45 gr IMR 4895 which gave 2360 fps/ SD 14/ ES 31 for 3 shots. I had serious intentions of retesting that load and continuing load developement with 4350 but never got to it. I traded off that rifle (it wasn't damaged in the least) to a friend who still hunts with it. I still have the better part of that box of Hornady 220s left so I may get around to developing a 2400 fps load with it. I think a safe 2400 fps load can be developed with a slower burning powder than 4895. Maybe one of these days...... Larry Gibson | |||
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 One of the 8 x57s has done 2300 fps with the 220 gr using DP 86 which is very similar to AC3100. I hesitated going any farther as pushing the envelope had little meaning to me.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Thanks for the replies guys.  As for the 220gr Sierra I have heard that expansion of the bullet could be a concern but I am loading it for black bear. It is my intent to "bust" a 7' bear through the shoulder at close range. I want to hit him from 20-30 yards. I believe the bullet would be okay on large heavy animals, not so sure about deer, but then I have the 200gr Accubonds for that. But the concern about expansion is also why I would like to push the velocity up a bit if possible, cuz that will help. Not like the 8x57 is going to be anywhere near the 8RM of course... Frankly I could just use the Accubonds on deer too but then I am just interested in what these Sierra's will do. I may very well find when I get around to expansion testing that they are too tough at the velocity I am shooting. | |||
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You might want to tru the 220 gr. Woodleigh. I believe it is designed to expand at lower velocities. | |||
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That $50 at BIG5 rifle has done one 1" 5 shot group at 100m with 200 gr Match Kings ~2600 fps, so something was different, and probably not the load. It was probably my poor technique and big hurry to go elk hunting. | |||
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So you want to risk high pressures to get 200 fps of velocity and your planned shot distance is 20-30 yds?  Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I read somewhere that the Sierra 2420 bullet would not expand properly if shot with wimpy 8mm Mauser loads. It was supposedly made for the 8mm mag. It might have been right here on AR. https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/...=344102957#344102957 | |||
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5 shots out of Yugo M-48 mauser 220 hornady SP IMR4831 53 grains win brass win LRP 2352 fps work up slow...close to your 2400 fps Hope this may help some. | |||
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My 8x57 load for the 220 Woodleigh. Chrono Date: 6/25/2005 Cartridge: 8x57JS Firearm: Rem Model 700 Classic Scope: Leupold 1-4x VX-II Barrel Length: 24" Bullet: 220 gr Woodleigh RN Powder: IMR-4350 Powder charge: 51.0 gr Case Make: W-W Primer: WLR C.O.L.: 3.14" Chrono Summary Average Velocity: 2,402 fps Average Energy: 2,819 ft lb High Velocity: 2,428 fps Low Velocity: 2,392 fps Extreme Spread: 36 fps Standard Deviation: 10 fps Usual caveats apply about backing off the powder charge and working back up. This load appears safe in my rifle. The primers don't even flatten. Nosler lists a max of 52.0 grs of IMR-4350 with a 200 gr Partition (though I think their velocity reading is off in their manual for that load). Also, notice below that Accurate Arms lists a max charge of 51.0 grs of AA-4350 with the Hornady 220 Spire Point though the velocity they got is lower than my Woodleigh load. So, I think my load of 51.0 grs of IMR-4350 with the 220 gr Woodleigh is safe. While AA-4350 and IMR-4350 are different powders, of course, they are VERY similar.  Be sure to notice the COL of 3.14" with the 220 Woodleigh RN in my load. This puts the base of the bullet right at the bottom of the case neck (perfect!). Believe or not, I can't seat the 220 gr Sierra as far out as the Woodlegh RN even though the Sierra is a spitzer. I don't have the measurements handy at the moment; have to wait until I get home. I have not worked up loads with the 220 gr Sierra but I did some COL measurements with my Stoney Point gauge. One of these days I'm going to try the 220 gr Sierra but I think I'll back off the powder charge to 50.0 grs of IMR-4350 when I do as the bullets have to be seated a little deeper.  Just as a side note, the S&B 196 gr SPCE factory load listed in the table at 2592 fps chronographed an average of 2647 fps (instrumental) in my rifle. I wish I could find some of the S&B 220 gr Sierra factory ammo to try. I'd like to chronograph it and see what it does in my rifle. http://www.sellier-bellot.cz/ http://www.rws-munition.de/ English version: http://www.rws-munition.de/en/rws_ruag/rws_ruag.htm  Warthog -- Rem Model 700 Classic in 8x57JS, 220 gr Woodleigh RN at 2400 fps Cheers! -Bob F. | |||
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Oh no, I have no intention risking high pressures. I know this cartridge and M-700 are capable of safely doing this. See the info posted by BFaucett, that is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks BFaucett! | |||
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I'm glad I could be of some help. Cheers! -Bob F. | |||
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The 1889 Mauser case head design, when built with a large Boxer primer and shot in a strong rifle is good for 62kpsi sustained. Any more and there may be short brass life... primer pocket is at risk for looseness. That would include 22-250, 243, 6mm Rem, 250 Savage, 257 Roberts, 25-06, 260 Rem, 6.5x55 [US brass], 270, 7mm-08, 7x57mm, 280, 308, 30-06, 8x57mm, 338F, 358, and 35W. What does it all mean? I am exceeding the SAAMI limit for 8mm [37kpsi] and shying away from the SAAMI limit on 270 [65kpsi]. | |||
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I picked up a Hungarian Model 24 a while back and have thought about reloading for it. I checked Sierra reloading program and they show Max Load with any powder at only 2200 FPS. Might check out www.noslerreloading.com for up to date reload data.  **Take Care and Keep your powder dry!** | |||
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Yeah, but my GUESS would be that Sierra is only currently showing load data that yields the max pressure spec set by SAAMI (which is on the low pressure side compared to European ammunition and the CIP spec) for the 8x57JS. BTW, the Sierra manual 4th edition (1995) shows a max charge of 50.1 grs of IMR-4350 with the 220 gr Sierra bullet for 2300 fps out of a 23" barrel for the 8x57JS. And, the current Hodgdon data and Accurate data I posted above shows that around 2400 fps is possible with a 220 gr bullet in the 8x57JS at very safe pressure levels for modern rifles (ie: Mauser Model 1898 rifles or later). Plus, Sellier & Bellot is loading the 220 gr Sierra to a spec of 2454 fps (see my table and the link to the S&B web site above) in their factory ammo. Of course, I'm sure S&B is loading their ammo to the higher European CIP pressure spec and not the lower American SAAMI pressure spec for the 8x57JS. Also, the A-Square handloading manual has this to day about the 8x57JS: "As a result of the average American's confusion over this cartridge (different bullet diameters) and the fact that there are weak rifles (the Model 1888) and junk rifles (mismatched bolts, some with excessive headspace), the SAAMI pressure specifications are low. In Europe, where these problems do not exist, the Maximum Average is 49,347 CUP or 56,604 PSI with Max Ind being 56,749 CUP or 65,094 PSI." -Bob F. | |||
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While I was working up loads for my recent trip to Namibia, I worked with a box of 220 gr Swift A Frames. I did have one load that might work for you; 45.2 grs of H4895. This is the max load listed by Hodgdon. 220 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon H4895 .323" 2.970" 40.0 2178 37,200 CUP 45.2 2420 48,800 CUP My velocity was 2350 out of a 20" barrel, so, if your barrel is longer, you may well be able to safely achieve your goal as long as you work your way up carefully. | |||
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I would try Norma MRP. It is slower, so will PERHAPS do what you want at lower pressures than would be the case with H4154. And, it is quite dense, allowing you to use a heavier charge in the available space..... I use it with great success in the 7X57mm with heavy bullets..... "Bitte, trinks du nicht das Wasser. Dahin haben die Kuhen gesheissen." | |||
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I would think your H414 should do the trick...do you have any pressure signs at all with your 46grn load? I have found that this powder gives lower pressure than some others that are generally considered appropriate for the 8x57, and I would think that you could sneak a bit higher than that IF you are still free of pressure signs and IF you seat your bullet out as far as you can. I like a COL of around 3.2" for that bullet if your gun will allow it (find the OAL it takes to touch the lands if you can, then back off a touch from there). Use a Lee Factory crimp die if you have to in order to hold the bullet securely under recoil...I haven't worked much with the 220 sierra and that powder (I've really only tried H4895 with that bullet so far), but i have a bunch of both laying around, I'll see what I can work up this next week, maybe that'll help a bit. Besides, it'll give me an excuse to shoot more!  "Trust in the Lord with all your heart. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct your paths." | |||
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You could cheat and use one of the Persian Mausers with the 29" long barrel..... | |||
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When I get 2675 fps with 220 gr Sierra in 8mm, that is with a 29" barrel on a 1903 Turk, a 1938 Turk, or a 98/22. I WISH I had a Persian. | |||
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FYI - I just checked my Lee data for the 8x57, and it shows a max load of 50.0 grains of H414 with a 225 grain bullet at an OAL of 2.95". The STARTING load for this powder and a 225 grin bullet is 43.5 grains, so your 46 grain load should still be AT LEAST 4 grains away from max with a 220 grain bullet, although I would still work up carefully if I were you. Also, again, seating longer than that will in effect turn your 8x57 into an improved cartridge, so you might be able to go higher than that, just depends on your gun. I just worked up some loads with the H414 and the 220 sierras at an OAL of 3.23" (this is the SAAMI max length - I have a loooooong throat in this old rifle, so I could go longer, but the bullets wouldnb't seat well) to test fire, so I'll post the results as soon as I get a chance to go touch 'em off. Jeremy "Trust in the Lord with all your heart. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct your paths." | |||
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Demonical- Don't know if you're still watching this thread, but I ran through those workup loads this evening...I didn't have the chrono tonight, but I went ahead and shot them anyway. Here is what I've got so far for you, and I'll try to get some velocity figures later this week...all loads are 4 shots, with a 4.5x scope, across my hood with a rolled up blanket for a rest... BEWARE: THESE LOADS EXCEED THE BOOK MAXIMUM...PROCEED WITH EXTREME CAUTION!! 8x57 Mauser Yugo Mauser w/ Original Military 23.5" barrel 3.23" OAL 220 Sierra Game King H414 Powder Moderate Crimp with Lee Factory Crimp Die 49.0 grains = No pressure signs at all, soot on necks (low pressure), approx 2" group @ 100 yards. 50.0 grains (Book MAX) = No pressure signs, soot on neck, 1.15" group @ 100 yards. 51.0 grains = no pressure signs, little soot on neck, 1.5" group @ 100 yards (my fault on group!!). 52.0 grains = no pressure signs, clean necks, 1.0" group @ 100 yards. 53.0 grains = primers starting to flatten a touch, still round on edges, 3 shots in just over 1", with one flyer (my fault) @ 100 yards. As I said, I don't know the velocities yet, but I will load up some more and chrono them later this week. I will say that unless you're seating extremely shallow, or your throat is extremely short, you should be able to go beyond the 46 grains of H414 you're currently at by at least a couple of grains, maybe more (remember, book max is 50.0grns). Do proceed with CAUTION though, and watch for pressure signs, etc, etc, etc. Remember, each gun is different... Hope this helps!! Jeremy "Trust in the Lord with all your heart. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct your paths." | |||
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jdunlapmo thanks for the info. I have a plan to load and test a bunch of bullets. I want to copy Finn Aagaards wet newsprint/phone book testing. I have interest in checking penetration and expansion with the 8x57, .338WM. .416RM, .45-70 etc... It's likely going to be a month from now after the wife goes on holidays. She's taking the kids to Ontario for a month. What a sweet woman! I will be going back and forth from the reloading bench to the rifle range and the local golf course, plus maybe shop a few gun stores! | |||
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Okay, here's the rest of the story... 6-26-08 Yugo Mauser / 23.5" barrel 8x57JS / 3.23" OAL Remington Brass, Neck Sized Moderate Crimp with Lee Factory Crimp Die CCI 200 Large Rifle Primers 220 Sierra Game King H414 Powder Chrono @ 10ft from muzzle Powder Charge: 52.0 grains Average Velocity = 2,412.6 fps High Velocity = 2,433 fps Low Velocity = 2,398 fps Extreme Spread = 35 fps Powder Charge: 53.0 grains Average Velocity = 2,472 fps High Velocity = 2,487 fps  Low Velocity = 2,460 fps (twice in a row!!) Extreme Spread = 27 fps I don't know how to figure standard deviation, so maybe someone can use these #'s to figure that out...Also, I didn't shoot for groups tonight, I just set the chrono up pointed towards a large dirt embankment 40 yards away and had at it. Also, I shot slowly this evening, never allowing the barrel to heat up, and even at 53.0 grains, I had absolutely NO pressure signs. No primer flattening at all, no extractor marks, nothing!! Apparently the slight primer flattening the other day was due to the hot barrel heating up the powder in the cases, 'cause I noticed that it would be fine on the first couple of shots, and slightly flattened on the last couple (last time, not tonight). Sooo, I am going to ease up another grain or two in 1/2 grain increments next time out, just to see if I can hit 2500...I actually think I can, and within acceptable pressures!! "Trust in the Lord with all your heart. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct your paths." | |||
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Quickload thinks that 53 gr H414 8x57 220 gr Sierra SP 3.23", 2000 psi start pressure [ not touching lands]. 23.5" barrel gives: 54,885 psi chamber pressure 2,496 fps muzzle 1,810 fps 400 yards It has been my experience that the Mauser case head can take 62,000 psi and have long lived brass with tight primer pockets. That would correspond to 55 gr H414, 2592 fps muzzle, 1890 fps at 400 yards. At 62,000 psi and searching powders, Quickload ranks H414 13th. #1 is W760 at 2657 fps What bothers me is that I think H414 is W760. | |||
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Thanks for the info tnekkcc. I thought I might have about 1.5 to 2 grains left before the red zone, guess I was right. Honestly, another .5 grain should get this gun to 2500. If it does, I'll certainly stop there, as that's good enough for anything walking on this continent, and certainly more than enough for anyhting I'm likely to shoot with it anytime soon. What's really cool is that my gun looks like it'll put these bullets sub-moa with a good rest. That's pretty good for a gun of it's age and "mileage." I have to say I was really (pleasantly!) surprised with the velocities I'm getting over the chrono with this bullet and the H414.  Looks like the right combo to me... On the H414 / W760 thing...I too thought they were the same powder?? Not sure what's up with that..."Trust in the Lord with all your heart. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct your paths." | |||
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When the 8mm gets loaded to it's real potential, and the BS of SAAMI and US load books is ignored, then we get back to the pressures of the German military 2900 fps 150 gr load from 1905, and then the 8mm is in the 30-06 class. Seafire says that the 8mm is nearly the optimum proportions, like the .223. | |||
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Hi Why not S&B sierra loadings? they load 220 grain sierra @ 2400fps+ and are cheap like a dirt. in my old husky 5 rounds keep touching each other @ 50 yards with iron sight and a simple shooting stick!!! very great ammo . they penetrate more than 55 cm(22 inches)! hard packed papper and mushroom very nicely and never jacket and lead separation even when i had a one inch hard wood board in front of pappers . i beleive it is a very good load för heavy games like elk and bear. the norma 196 grain oryx bonded is also a very good load with deep penetration and very nice mushrooming ,but more than twice expensive. regards YES Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy; its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. | |||
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YES- That's a good suggestion, and I've seen that ammo online before. However, at least where I live, I've never seen it in stock in any store, and since I live near the Sierra Factory (30 minute drive from my door to theirs), I can pick up factory seconds and reload them for super cheap. However, for someone who doesn't reload I would say that they are about the best deal going on 8x57 ammo. "Trust in the Lord with all your heart. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct your paths." | |||
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hi sierra 220 grain has a thicker jacket than average bullets in 8 mm and why it works well on heavy game. i have seen some reloading data on scandinavian sites, bot the powders are either norna or VV made and i am afraid you can't find then easily in USA. a guy in our group uses a break open gun in 8x57 JRS and he use the ammo loaded to about 2250 fps and he has hunted but moose and all kind of game with very satisfactory!! no problem with expanding att all even at more than 200 yards. you don't need to worry about expanding if you can find scandinavian powder over there . then i can send you some reloading data. regard Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy; its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. | |||
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The way I see it, the secret is hitting bone. If you place the bullet high into the shoulder, expansion wouldn't be a real factor as bone shrapnel/breakage alone would probably anchor the animal. Place it a little low and you've taken out the shoulder/leg and goodies in between. Both are devastating shots disrupting all vitals. Having said that, I'm a firm believer in expanding bullets for almost everything except the big bruins where one must get through layers of mud, fat and hide in order to anchor a critter on the first shot. | |||
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tnekkcc what is QuickLoad? Is that a computer reloading/ballistics program? | |||
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Yes, Here is where you buy it: http://www.neconos.com/ Here you can read about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QuickLOAD http://www.6mmbr.com/Quickload.html http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_3_51/ai_n8709813 http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar52.htm What does it all mean? Since I got Quickload, my ~50 load books have been gathering dust. | |||
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Thanks tnekkcc! | |||
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