Are there any practical ways for monitoring for excessive pressures other than sticky extractions, flattened primers? I've never had any of my loads reach that point. I know that we should stick with published loading data, but it seems anemic compared to older loading manuals.
I just purchased a chrony and plan to use it my future load development. Will that help?

Yes! Chronographing is a big help. Watch for a smooth linear progression of velocity increase for each grain of powder increase. Stop shooting when the velocities start showing anything unexpected such as diminishing returns or expotential spikes or dropoffs.

Yes, that means plot your results on graph paper and solve the equation Y = mX + b
where Y = velocity and X = powder charge in grains of powder.

But along the way, watch the case heads for any and all signs of brass extrusion, etc.

No single sign is completely reliable. Work hardened brass may show no signs.

The A-Square manual measured pressures in reloaded brass and noted the pressures rose for the same loads just because the brass was getting hard, and no signs of pressure showed even when they were excessive.

Annealing the neck and shoulder might offset this slightly, maybe after three firings? Or just move it out to the squib load pile. Premium safari ammo should be new or once-fired brass.

Any load development would be best done with new or only once fired brass for those that have to fireform to get to the starting point.

You will also get excessive recoil and muzzle blast,if you get a flame coming out about a foot long for sure back off.............I loaded some 41mags. like that one time and had to beat the ejecter rod against a tree to unload the spent shells!!Had a few cases that cracked also on those!I didnt do that load anymore and i was no where near what the books recommend.....had some sorry factory loads in 22LR. blow and shoot hot gas and particiles back in my eyes,rupurted the back of the little shells they were so hot-Wildcat brand from western auto years ago!Hope this helps...

If you are doing 375 on up and use chrony; You can use the D chart we have discussed in
RIP thread.Use it like I show in the
post near the end with a couple of my loads.
I drew one out about twice the size, and
put 375 on up on it.
For smaller calibers the chart would have to
be enlarged and lenthened about 5 times
in size to get data.Ed

Here are several ways to evaluate pressure:

1. Condition of primers: if they are falling out as you open the bolt (or action) you are too hot;

if the primers are flowing back into the firing pin hole, you are too hot;

if there is a smoke ring around the primer when in the pocket you are too hot;

if the primers are flat at the edge, you might be too warm as the weather gets hotter;

2. Check the SAMI spec. for your cartridge - measure the head of the case when you resize it; if the case head expands beyond the max. listed spec. you are too hot;

3. If the primer pockets loosen up after one reloading, your load is too hot;

4. If you are shaving brass off the headstamp, your load is too hot;

Many of the above signs will show themselves all at once.

The best thing to do is follow the most current guidelines set forth in modern reloading manuals.

In your post you mention that older reloading manuals list higher charge weights than more modern ones. One possible reason for this is a change in the strength of the product. Believe it or not, there are variations in the strength of powder from lot to lot. I would suppose the same to be true when comparing the "same" powder made in 1969 to that found on the dealer's shelf today.

Hope this helps.

Gurrie Fandozzi

MODERN rifle :
primer pockets should stay tight at least 3 firings with new brass.


Travis F.

I know a while back Charlie Sisk did some testing - loaded a 300WM way over max and went shooting - eventually blew the last 5 inches off the barrel. (he was looking for and testing theories on secondary pressure spikes)

This all happened without ANY of the usuall signs on the brass - ie loose pockets, cratered primers, marks, ect.

FWIW

My understanding is that reloading data in modern manuals is lower/slower, because now the manual sources have pressure-testing equipment that they did not have in the past, and they have found that some of the old loads were unsafe.

Also, as Loonie noted, pressure signs, whether stiff bolt lift, or signs on the brass, may not appear until pressure is far in excess of what is safe. If a few variables come together in an unfortunate way, somebody down at the ER will be picking pieces of metal out of your face.

My advice is to stick to modern manual reloading data whenever possible. The people who write those manuals mostly have well-stocked laboratories and large budgets. The notion that you will stumble over a combination that magically produces more velocity without dangerous pressure is dubious. Further, there is little to gain. Will whatever is on the receiving end respond significantly differently with a gain of 70 fps?

Want to get higher velocities in perfect safety? Put the chronograph screens closer together.

quote:

The notion that you will stumble over a combination that magically produces more velocity without dangerous pressure is dubious.

Absolutely so. Pressure times area is force, and F=ma. There is no escape.

Conventional pressure signs don't kick in until well over SAAMI max. Pressure ring measurements have so much random noise that an excessive number of measurements is needed to get a reliable estimate.

You can buy factory ammo, you can stick to the book with the usual caveats, or you can stick a strain gage to your barrel and make measurements. Those are the only three solid options I know of. Oh... it is helpful to use a chronograph. If you are getting book speeds, it's a good bet you're alse generating book pressures.

AC-Got chart done and PR factors
listed by case types and powder types.
I show 67k on first load and 74k on second.
Should work for being simple.Chart
and system works with a little safety
margin.And it is fast for the big bore people.
I do ME by velocity in hundreds squared(drop
zeros) times bullet wt, divided by 45,and you have ME.Find it on chart to get MBR and find multiplier from list on chart, times MBR,
and you have peak pressure.

Using chart and chrono will make my
load developement easy.And the chrono
is still one off the most accurate devices to use in safely reloading...Chart is now
12 high by 18 inches long.With just
375 and up on it, easy to use.......Ed.

I learned these lessons back when no one had any data or chronograph and it worked fine, contrary to many of todays internet experts...
We looked for the following:

cratered primers

very flat primers

sticky bolts

estractor mark on case head or other marks
black ring an black flash marks around the primer usually means you have gone too far.

We used lots of powders that would fill a case and not be capable of blowing up a rifle such as 4831 in the 06 and 270..

these old danger signs still work..When the first one shows up, and thats normaly an extractor mark, then back off a grain or two..and your safe...

Lots of folks that hand load don't have access to all the niceities of todays matropolis dwelling handloader, and have to make do as best they can, and they get by very well indeed,..pay attention and it will guide you safely...Always have a half dozen reloadin manuals....

The first thing I do is find my rifles max, cut it a grain, then I work from there backwards for accuracy.

Ray, while I agree with a lot of what you've said, I do disagree just a little...not much.

If I were just loading for an '06 or a 270, there would be no reason whatever for me to instrument a rifle. Good loads are readily available from multiple sources. And, as you say, there are powders that work well, and are incapable of getting you in trouble. As pointed out, there is no safe solution that gets you a lot more than book MV's.

There are some times that the instrumentation is worth its weight in gold, though.

My 243 is one example. I checked four different books, and got widely differing max loads for the weight bullet I wanted to shoot. I also found very different loads in one book for two different bullets of the same weight. It was easy enough to resolve that, and I ended up with a load that is probably 1-1.5 grains under what I could run, and that I feel very safe with.

The other case is if you're shooting an oddball, or wildcat. I have a modern 6.5x55, and all the published loads are very anemic. Same goes for my Yugo 8x57. I run mine at about 55 KPSI, and get very close to '06 performance from it. I'm just building a 7x57, and the published loads for it are also super conservative. You can easily run that at '06 pressures, and nip right at the heels of the 270 if you want to.

Then, again, if your mind is as warped as mine, and you just want to do meaningful experiments with powder, bullets and primers, the instrumentation is worth it.

But for just hunting, with a very conventional rifle.... naaahhhh. Take the average of three books, don't exceed book MV, and watch for any signs of trouble, and you're fine.

1. Use a chronograph and monitor velocity and charge weight.

2. Have your rifle checked for headspace. If it is OK, use either Remington or Winchester primers and mike across them after you punch them out. Observe how they grow in diameter as you approach the max load VELOCITY listed for your components in your manual.

If you make the max velocity with the listed components, the diameter of your primers is a very good indication of the diameter they will reach when you near max pressure.

If you change the type of brass, start over as the way the primer pockets are cut influences how much the primer head diameters grow as a function of pressure.

CCI primers and some Federal primers are too hard.

quote:

Originally posted by Westernmassman:
Are there any practical ways for monitoring for excessive pressures other than sticky extractions, flattened primers? I've never had any of my loads reach that point.

Good for you. You are on the right track.

The vast majority of the responses you have received have been excellent. And I'll correct the "one exception" that is totally wrong below.

quote:

I know that we should stick with published loading data, but it seems anemic compared to older loading manuals.
I just purchased a chrony and plan to use it my future load development. Will that help?

Some of the older Reloading Manuals did in fact have Loads that on first look appear to be more robust. But there are multiple reasons for why they are that way and if you could get the exact same components of that time period and barrels with the exact same dimensions, you would the see they were correct - at that time.

Your chrony can be either a big help or it can be totally misleading. It just depends on how you use it. But, as long as you use as many of the excellent Pressure Indicators as possible if you are trying to reach a SAFE MAX Load for your rifle, you will do fine.

The one point that needed correcting was the totally incorrect "negative" comment about Pressure Ring Expansion(PRE) and Case Head Expansion(CHE). Both have been in use for well over 100 years by knowledgeable reloaders and work great to keep you at SAFE Pressure levels. Like any of the other Pressure Indicators, there are a few tricks to getting the best information back.

You basically compare the PRE of a factory load with the PRE of your reloads. You must do the measurements with a 0.0001" capable Micrometer, not a 0.001" capable Caliper. You rotate the case between the Micrometer anvils to locate the largest PRE. You only measure PRE after the shot. And you only use those cases 6-9 shots(depending on the strength of the load) for "PRE measurements" because of work hardening.

You take the CHE in only one spot, both before and after the shot, then compare the difference. You can only use CHE on shots beginning with the first reload through 6-9, again depending on the strength of the load.

Very simple and easy to get excellent repeatable data using PRE and CHE from just a few shots.
---

And since the person who made The World's Most Ignorant Reloading Suggestion took it upon himself to once again slam PRE and CHE, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention:

A HSGS(not calibrated by the JCN Calibration Method) = Reloaders Pyrite (aka Fool's Gold)

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
We looked for the following:

cratered primers

very flat primers

sticky bolts

estractor mark on case head or other marks
black ring an black flash marks around the primer usually means you have gone too far.


The first thing I do is find my rifles max, cut it a grain, then I work from there backwards for accuracy.

Exactly

Approach max load SLOWLY, first sign - back off.

Hot Core and Denton - are we going to have another engineering shootout here?

quote:

Very simple and easy to get excellent repeatable data using PRE and CHE from just a few shots.

Unfounded assertion, contrary to experimental results, and the writings Ken Waters (the "father" of PRE) and many others.

AC- in the past my multipliers were based
on a MBR or MEP that was too high, based on one type of use,in narrow pressure range, and the
2.5 multiplier isn't used now that I have the chart, and a new set based on on 3 case types, and the powder types.So forget about the 2.5 figure. We made improvements.And new
system is a close approximation to
the real, and all the types of pressure
measuring systems won't agree down to the last
1/10 of a percent.-So our system shows--
Your first load-4350 powder---65000-
Second------ 4064 powder---66,600
Third----- 3031 powder---66000,
and the tricky fourth one,with your
fast 760---- 70,000 psi.
I have checked around at all data, even comparing with surplus ball,
it seems 760 varies from fast or nearly as slow as WC-860 surplus.Must be slow that I have.
These loads are hairier than Hodgdon's
manual by little bit.Brass lasts a lot longer
if pressures down about 10%.

I think system is good approximation to use in load developement, in tandem with watching the other usual signs of excess pressure.

HOTCORE-About 2/3 of my wildcats use brass that
have a huge radius in the case corner, and
hard heads and corners, that PRE
wouldn't give readings until you were at pressures that might damage gun.So it isn't
usable on those cases.And where they do expand up the case beyond radius, they being thin
don't affect extraction so you wouldn't know there was high pressure.Ed.

AC-The chart is being redone so that
a clear photo can he made of it, if possible, no luck, so far.Have to put heavier lines on it for camera to pickup.It is too big to scan
with anything I have.But we will get it.
And thanks for the info you put in.

PS-I assumed that the Weatherby had 26 in barrel, with about 24 in bullet travel..
If data comes from shorter barrel to use chart
just add 25 fps for stick powder or 35 fps for
ball per inch difference of bullet travel--Ed.

Ed,

If you wouldn't mind would you run these loads for me?

500 A^2 with 600 gr Woodleigh PPSP
Case Weatherby
CCI 250 primer

IMR4350
MV ~ 2200 fps

Rel 7
MV ~ 2200 fps

IMR3031
MV ~ 2200 fps

W748
MV ~ 2300 fps

Thanks,
ASS_CLOWN

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
HOTCORE-About 2/3 of my wildcats use brass that have a huge radius in the case corner, and hard heads and corners, that PRE wouldn't give readings until you were at pressures that might damage gun.So it isn't usable on those cases.And where they do expand up the case beyond radius, they being thin don't affect extraction so you wouldn't know there was high pressure.Ed.

Hey Ed, I've never handled or seen any of your Wildcats, but I'll take your word for it that PRE/CHE won't work with them. Darn shame since they are the very best Pressure Indicators of all time on regular cartridges.

Do you have cases made with special "Internal Dimensions and Casehead hardness requirements" specifically for them?

I used to mess with some Wildcats in my youth and used PRE/CHE on them, with guidance from some very knowledgeable Elders. Using PRE on a normal Wildcat (based on a blown out or slightly altered factory cartridge) is tricky, because the "Pressure Indicator" is very subtle. But it can be done. Best accomplished with a good bit of experience gained on regular factory ammo before attempting it on the Wildcats I messed with.

We didn't have the inexpensive chronographs that are available today, nor would they have been much use as a Pressure Indicator on the Wildcats I fooled with. It would have been pure speculation as to what the velocity should have been with them.

But, I got tired of Wildcats and all the "special" forming, trimming, anealing, etc. and just use good old factory cartridges today. One of my buddies still likes experimenting with Wildcats and is the first person I know that created a 338WSM(based on the 300WSM simply necked up). Just not for me anymore, too much aggravation.

Best of luck to you with your Wildcats.

Since all the dumb movies from hollywood came out showing rifles shooting for 2 miles with 2 foot of flame coming out the end of the barrel everyone wants to load up hot. You don't have to and shouldn't try to flatten primers or any thing else that could cause problems. Get a real good accrute load. There has never been a csae recorded where a deer bitched in court about being killed with a bullet travling slower than it could have been. After you have a real good constant grouping load then use the chronagraph to set your tejectory for the load.Don't worry about someone who says they get 120 FPS more out of thier rifle. Go with accruatecy first.

Hotcore first-- The brass I use is built that way for other cases, like the 50 cal-- Lake
City brass-- we use to make my 700HE and Rob's
12GA FH. The 20 mm brass we make the the 4bore from. The 20 mm HS we make the 900 HE from.
The 55 cal Boyes we will make a 620 or 658 something from, and Nyati brass we make the 585 HE from.All these cases except 4bore we put a belt on so the large radius in the corner
is best, and the belt not being above the
base and corner won't flare out from firing,
like Wea cases can if you overload, We don't plan on overloads, but want cases to last forever.These wildcats are for fun shooting mainly, so we can make holes in paper that
can be seen without scope.

AC-Assuming 26 in barrel, about 24 in bullet
travel.I get following--

4350 load-2200 fps --47000 psi.

RE-7 load-2200 fps --61000 psi.

3031 load-2200 fps --53000 psi.

748 load-2300 fps --59000 psi.

Edited a couple as I read the wrong powder.I personally would not use RE-7 or 3031
or 4064 in 500A-sq or 460,Hard on brass.
I didn't have much data on loads and peak pressures for RE-7 in bigger bores.So
I may be low on that one.That
is how I got mutipliers by comparing a whole
bunch of loading info with pressures, comparing with Homer's formula, finding MBP on chart,
to see how the PRMs work in the real.

We are getting chart so pic can be taken
with different cam and will have picture
of chart on in couple days.Ed.

Thanks Ed. I really had no idea at all there was enough interest in calibers that large to warrant a business in them. Always nice to be able to learn something.

Are they used for Military applications or hunting?

If hunting, what are they hunting with them?

Are the 4 & 2 bore cases for "old" firearms or are folks still making new firearms them?