I reacently purchaced a Rem 700 Police, it is 300WM. I have loaded up and shot about 80 rounds through it, with very bad groups so far. I am cretian I am not the major cause of this. Is there a period of the gun's break in when it is not going to shoot very well?
I have tried many loads that shoot extremely well in other guns, to only get 1 inch groups at 100yds. i know that guns are particular, but this is a little unsettling.Does anyone have any experience with this?

Try shooting your Loads at 300yds by shooting at the corner of a Black Square. Sometimes the results at 100yds can mislead you.

If after trying the above you are still having problems, try developing your Loads at 300yds using the Creighton Audettet (Ladder) Method and then Fine Tune the best harmonic by varying the Seating Depth.

Clean the barrel every 6-9 shots and let it cool while you are getting some Off-hand practice with a 22rimfire.

If your trigger has not been properly adjusted, you don't have a chance. The Remington Trigger is excellent when properly adjusted.

What is the Ladder Method? I have never heard of it. My trigger has been adjusted down to a very light but safe pull.

Let me get this straight.

You are getting 1 MOA groups with an off the rack rifle and a random load.

As for "break in", there is no fixed number of rounds.

Work on your load...

quote:

Is there a period of the gun's break in when it is not going to shoot very well?

No....a brand new unfired barrel given the right bedding and load will shoot great and continue for thousands of rounds.

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I have tried many loads that shoot extremely well in other guns, to only get 1 inch groups at 100yds.

If you have a .300 magnum that really shoots 1" groups IMO you have nothing to complain about. Just because it's labeled as a police gun don't mean it'll shoot perfect.....or anything near it.

First clean your barrel with Remclean or JB Bore paste, then; check your action screws; then;
Try some Federal 300 Win Mag Match ammo and some Black Hills Match ammo.
Shoot it at 100 and at 300, and at 600 yards. Sometimes some rifles shoot better MOA wise at longer range.
Let us know what happens.

quote:

Originally posted by Croberts:
What is the Ladder Method? I have never heard of it. My trigger has been adjusted down to a very light but safe pull.

It is a Load Development Method developed by Mr. Audette.

Since you mentioned the 300WinMag, I'll just randomly pick a 180gr load shown in Speer #12 for that cartridge. Lots of excellent Powders for this cartridge and they show RL-19 as being one which gives you the highest potential velocity. Beginning Loads are 72.0gr and go to 76.0gr.

So, here is what you do. Since you already have Fireformed cases, just Seat the Bullet to lightly Kiss-the-Lands then as you Fine Tune the Seating Depth later on, you will not have the chance of "Increasing" the Pressure.

Load the first cartridge at 72.0gr and mark it. The second one at 72.3gr, etc. until you reach 76.0gr and STOP. (If you were using a 30-06 size case you would just increase in 0.2gr steps "up the ladder".)

Shoot each round on the same target at 300yds so the Point-of-Impact shift will be easier to notice. Do the shooting at dawn, dusk or when it is calm so the wind does not mislead you by moving the Point-of-Impact.

Mark each hit as it is fired so you know which hole was created by each bullet. A good Spotting Scope can easily distinguish 30cal holes at 300yds and you mark the Points-of-Impact on a second target laying next to you.

When you get through, you will notice some of the Points-of-Impact form "clusters". This is where the bullets left the barrel at either the maximum or minimum amplitude of the Harmonic. That is what you are looking for. Perhaps you had a Cluster at 73.2, 73.5 and 73.8.

I like to re-shoot those Loads on individual Targets to see which one is the best and then Fine Tune the Final Load by varying the Seating Depth.
---

Fairly straight forward, but a bit time consuming which some folks dislike. Just depends on if you want the best Load possible or not.

By the way, I also do a full case prep and segregate cases into separate Lots by weight. All cases need to be from the same Lot and not mixed. I like to do the Audette method using either Sierra MatchKings or Nosler Ballistic Tips because of their accuracy. Then I switch to a different Bullet of the same weight and re-verify the Harmonic once I have an idea of where it is.

While doing the Load Development, you want to watch for all Pressure Indications and STOP if you need to before shooting all the Test Ammo. Not every rifle can SAFELY go to the MAX shown in the Manuals, while some can exceed them. You just have to pay attention and STOP when the Pressure Indicators tell you to.

How about using RL 22 from 71.5 to 75.5 grains (from the Nosler #5 manual) and 180 grain triple shocks. Still breaking in this 300, so need to clean at least every 5 shots. Should I fire a fouling round clear of the target after cleaning? Would want to seat the bullets .050" off the lands like Barnes recommends. IMHO, the triple shocks are more consistently accurate than the SMK's or NBT's.

Introducing too many variables?


Without guns we are subjects, with guns we are citizens

Hot core,
this way of testing shows what load the gun likes, how is the best way to distinguish it?
By the best cluster of .2 to .3 grain increments?
Also do I just select what powder and bullet that I want to use or do them all? To see the best results.
I am impressed with the groups, I am always striving to get better. Untill I feel that it is the best I can get for the work that I put into it. Thanks for all the suggestions and help.

"If you trigger has not been properly adjusted.,you dont have a chance.The Remington is excellent when properly adjusted".Can I adjust the trigger myself or needs a gunsmith to adjust the trigger,how many pounds(trigger) best for bench rest shooting...

Didn't intentionally abandon you, I just missed the question being posted.

quote:

Originally posted by Croberts:
Hot core,
this way of testing shows what load the gun likes, how is the best way to distinguish it? By the best cluster of .2 to .3 grain increments?

Yes indeed. That is what I use. Since the actual Volume of the 300WinMag is so large, doing the steps in 0.3gr increments will do jsut fine. You might even be able to do them in 0.5gr increments, but be sure to STOP when the Pressure Indicators tell you to.

And DO NOT go "below" the Loads shown in the Manuals with typically slow powders.

quote:

Also do I just select what powder and bullet that I want to use or do them all? To see the best results.

I initially look through all my Manuals and get a general idea of which Powder appears to give the very best Velocity in multiple Manuals, and that is the one I start with.

If you do not see it beginning to create Clusters, go to what appears to be the Second best Powder. Another wonderful thing about being on this Board, is there are a lot of "Experienced 300WinMag Shooters" who have favorite Powders. You can start a Thread and ask them which powder has provided the "very best accuracy" for them. If velocity is secondary to what you want, let them know.

Another great source is "Steve's Pages". You can find a link to them in any of Steve's posts. His comment above about being concerned about a 1" group with a 300WinMag in a non-tuned factory rifle is indeed valid. Some will shoot better than that and some won't. But, that does not mean you should give up trying to get better groups. It always builds "confidence" in your Final Load and I know I'm never wasting my time when I'm practicing.

quote:

I am impressed with the groups, I am always striving to get better. Untill I feel that it is the best I can get for the work that I put into it. Thanks for all the suggestions and help.

I just tried responding to your "PM" after typing in an expanded response for about an hour. Got to the end and hit post and it indicated there was some kind of "Error". Of course I'd not saved what I'd whammed in on an electronic Scratchpad.

So, I hope it got to you. If not, I'll try to watch a bit closer on this Thread,

Another thing to consider would be the scope that you are using.

If it is PA adjustable, do you have it adjusted properly?

If it is not, does it have excess parallax?

Hey rejpelly, Like above, I just missed the post and am not intentionally ignoring you.

quote:

Originally posted by rejpelly:
...Can I adjust the trigger myself or needs a gunsmith to adjust the trigger,how many pounds(trigger) best for bench rest shooting...

There are all kinds of directions available on the net for adjusting Remington Triggers. Plenty of past posts on the Gunsmith Board too, or create a new thread there and ask for a Link to the Remington Trigger Adjustment info. Once you look at it, you can decide if it is something you want to tackle. I believe the directions are posted at "Sniper Country".

In addition, if your Remington is of fairly recent manufacture, the actual internal Spring may be so heavy that you need one of less strength so you can get the correct Set-Up. In this situation, it would probably be best to have a Gunsmith do it for you.

There is also the possibility you could get a FREE or low-cost Remington Trigger from someone who has chosen to replace their factory trigger with an Aftermarket Trigger. Lots of fine Aftermarket Triggers are available for the Remington and a lot of folks just want one for all kinds of reasons - some valid and some not. If you can get one from them, then you could take it all apart and learn on it about how the trigger actually works and there will be no chance of goofing up your rifle. And if it is an older one, chances are the "Spring" in it will be lighter than one of the new trigger assemblies.

Now, that said, it looks like I'm stressing for a "Very Light" trigger. But, if you hunt with the rifle, it is possible to go too light and then have an Accidental Discharge when you see a WHOPPER TROPHY and "milk the trigger" a bit. The main thing is it should have a very "crisp" release, absloutely no felt drag or creep as you begin adding pressure to the trigger.

When the trigger is adjusted so it releases and you have no idea at all that it is about to go, then that is what " I " prefer. But, there was a recent thread somewhere on one of these Boards where people actually treat their rifle triggers like they were shooting a shotgun - just gave the trigger a yank when they had the sights where they want them. I did not get into that discussion, because it appeared that the "Yankers" all seemed to be people I recognize as being "close distance" hunters with typically LARGE Caliber rifles having significant recoil. And if they say that works the best for them, I've no reason to disagree.

If however, the shooter is into precision shot placement, at longer distances, or trying to get very small groups with rifles having recoil levels below say an 8mmRemMag, then the "Yanking Method" is just not the very best way to go about it.

Some Target shooters measure their triggers in the Low Ounces(1.5oz-3oz) and there is no doubt that helps keep a flinch from effecting a group. On my bolt action rifles, I like them in the 1.5#-2# weight for shooting targets and then crank them up to about 3# for the early season(no gloves) and on up to 6# when I need gloves.

But, everyone is different and their hunting is different, so what works well for me, may not be the best for you.

Best of luck to you.

Another example of someone asking us to "armchair analyze" his problems with hardly any info!

Hey, my xyz car gets "bad" mileage. What do I do?

Hoonose?

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Originally posted by sonofagun:
Another example of someone asking us to "armchair analyze" his problems with hardly any info!

Hey, my xyz car gets "bad" mileage. What do I do?

Hoonose?

"armchair analyse"What do you mean?

rjpelly,

Just as Hot Core mentioned, there is plenty of info on the net about adjusting Remington triggers but, I would Strongly urge you to study the trigger in every way possible to see exactly how it functions and what purpose each of the three adjustment screws serve.

The Remington trigger can be adjusted easily but, it can also be very dangerous if you try to go to low. Some of the stock triggers can be adjusted to a fairly light weight (1.5-2.5#) safely while others may be dangerous at that weight but safe in the 3# range.

After I adjust my Remington 700 triggers I to the "testing" method of opening and slamming the bolt close while the safety is in the fire position (empty chamber of course), I do that about twenty times. Then, I put the safety in the "safe" position, pull the trigger, release trigger, and then switch the safety to fire. I do that about twenty times as well, if it fires any time you switch from safe to fire, You are too light.

I just adjusted my 700 Police trigger last night, it came stock w/ about a 5# pull so, somin' had to be done. I got it down to 2.75#s w/ no overtravel and very little creep. I could have gone down around 2#s or less but, I feel comfortable w/ triggers in the 2.5-2.75 range.

If you have ANY doubts what so ever about adjusting the trigger yourself, Don't do it. There are too many morons that tinker w/ triggers that end up w/ a time bomb in their hands. That's the ones you hear about their rifles firing when they chambered a round or it fired when they flipped it off safety.

One thing I do love about Remingtons trigger is the fact that it disengages when in the "safe" position.

Good Luck!

Reloader

quote:

After I adjust my Remington 700 triggers I to the "testing" method of opening and slamming the bolt close while the safety is in the fire position (empty chamber of course), I do that about twenty times. Then, I put the safety in the "safe" position, pull the trigger, release trigger, and then switch the safety to fire. I do that about twenty times as well, if it fires any time you switch from safe to fire, You are too light.

I would also do this if you have a gunsmith adjust the trigger as well.

Good Luck!

Reloader

quote:

Originally posted by rejpelly:

quote:

Originally posted by sonofagun:
Another example of someone asking us to "armchair analyze" his problems with hardly any info!

Hey, my xyz car gets "bad" mileage. What do I do?

Hoonose?

"armchair analyse"What do you mean?

We were given very little information about the gun (new/used?), load, shooting conditions, aactual group sizes and yet are expected to help from our "armchairs".

Like posting on a doctor board "I'm having pain...what should I do?"