Ok, I started loading for my 38 special. I have tried several different bullet weights of FACTORY ammo(158,148,130,125,110) before i began reloading. I consistantly shot better groups with the 125 grain "cheap" UMC cartridges than I did with any of the other weights. I keep Cor-bon 110 gr. +P rounds in my 38 when I'm carrying it. My main puspose in beginning reloading was to duplicate, as close as possible, the Cor-bon 110's that i use. Mainly because the Cor-Bons are a little too expensive to just go out target shooting with. Also, I wanted to have the power of the Cor-Bons, but i also wanted to improve my accuracy with this weight of bullet. I loaded up some 110 grain bullets and fired them with less than desireable results. I shot them about as good as i did the Cor-Bons, which to say wasn't very well. Seeing as how i shoot 125's so well, i decided to load up some 125's and see how i did with them. My groups were considerably smaller than with the 110's , but still not as good as with the factory 125's. So i tried a more powerful charge. Worse results. A more powerful charge, worse results still. So, i went back to the first charge i loaded with the 125's and shot considerably worse than i did the first time I loaded the same charge! Now i have tried all the accuracy "tricks"i.e, trimming all my cases to the same length, deburring the flash holes, weighing each charge that went into the cases, seating all to the same depth,etc.. Now, I dont believe its my hold that is causing the problem as I have been shooting for quite some time and I am a really good shot, even with my little snub-nose 38 I am loading for. Now, I'm getting frustrated because I was hoping i could gain better accuracy and save some money by reloading my own cartridges. However, so far, despite all the steps i have taken to ensure consistancy in my loads, I still shoot better with factory ammo! Seems like a waste of time to spend all this time loading only to achieve mediocre results. Does anyone have any advice on what i can do to improve accuracy? Should i try longer case lengths? Should i seat to a longer OAL? Any tips on a good process to evaluate and work up more accurate loads? I am using the load data from VihtaVuori powders since that is the powder(N350) I'm using. I trimmed my cases to 1.145 which is what VihtaVuori's load data showed. Which seemd somewhat short to me. And I seated to an OAL of 1.437-again seemed really short. I haven't noticed any signs of excessive pressure on my cases and all my cartridges go bang. They just dont seem to want to go very straight . I'm using Winchester primers and cases, and Hornady bullets. Any ideas?

Try a faster powder. If you are loading for a snub, the powder you are using is way too slow.
My rule for loading .38/357 is: the shorter the barrel the faster the powder. The idea being that you want the powder to burn as completely as possible INSIDE the barrel pushing the bullet.
A slow powder in a snub-nosed revolver is probably burning more powder outside the gun in the form of muzzle blast.
I am not familiar with VihtaVuori powders but I am sure that they make a faster powder that is better suited for your application.

Hope this helps
ZM

First off,assuming you can shoot a snub nose accurately( I have no way of telling other than your word here) you are dealing with some sort of consistency problem.I have two suggestions. First make sure you are crimping your bullets consistently and properly. Since you are new to reloading, in a .38 special, the quality of your crimp is very very important.To get a consistent powder column burn you will need a good tight crimp particularily on a jacketed bullet. Do you have a chronograph and if so what is the standard deviation of your loads? If the SD is >25fps you are producing erratic loads and thus, your accuracy will suffer. Putting in larger charges will just make this worse as you have observed. The Hornady bullet Jackets may also be too small for your gun. You could slug the barrel and eliminate this as an issue.
Try a load of 2.8grs of bullesye over a 158 gr solid base wad cutter. This should give you a group no more than 3 inches out of your snub-nose at 15 yrds. It will also provide minimum recoil so your accuracy should improve.If not, you are doing something wrong or your barrel forcing cone is fouled. Scrub it really clean!
Finally, use jacketed bullets from a different manufacturer than Hornady. Hope this helps.-Rob

Robv60,
When you say groups are worse or better, how big or small are they and at what distance? As you change your load, does the group shift around on the paper, and by how much? Are there any signs of keyholing?

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Gerard Schultz
GS Custom Bullets

I think you should try a different powder. The N-350 is a fairly slow burning powder for the cartridges you are loading. I would try some "Bullseye", or "HP-38", or "700X", or "red dot". All of these are much faster burning powders, and should be easy to obtain at least a couple of them. In pistol target shooting, the popular load with a 146 grain bullet has always been 2.7 grains of Bullseye. Check your other loading manuals for other loads.

Well, I'm shooting at a 6 inch target at 15 yards. The best group i had out of all my loads was around 2" with four shots within the 2 inch group and one wild shot that wasnt even within the target area. All of my "bad" groups were scattered over the target area in all directions, no more than 8" across. I am not familiar with "keyholing", so if you could explain the term to me i would be able to answer your question better. I chose the VihtaVuori powder because of the velocities shown for the particular bullet weights i wanted to load were a close match for what Cor-Bon lists for their bullets. Of course i understand that I would obtain different results given that I'm using a shorter barrel and a totally different gun under different conditions. However, i just wanted a close match. I haven't noticed alor of muzzle flash, but i have noticed what i thought to be alot of black residue around the case necks after they had been fired. Which i thouhgt may be because the powder wasnt burning fast enough. Also, does anyone have any tips for how i might get more consistant crimping? I thought i was crimping pretty good, they all look the same and i never really have to adjust my die in order to get the same amount of crimp on different cartridges. I have been giving what i guess would be a medium crimp. Its a noticable crimp but not flattened out against the bullet like i accidentally did once by turning my die in 1/2 a turn too far. Any suggestions on how to set up my die(LEE seating/crimping die) to get the amount of crimp that you would recommend would be VERY helpful. Also,I had read something about trying to find a powder that fills up the case as much as possible for the load you want in order to achieve better accuracy. Would the faster burning powders cause any problems in this area by not filling up the case as much or is that just a bunch of hype? You all have been very helpful and I thank you!

I went to my local reloading supplier today to check out some faster powders. Out of the Win231, Bullseye and IMR700x, all they had in stock was the 700x. I went ahead and purchased an 8oz can of the 700x and hope to try some loads with it tonight. Any experience with this powder for the 38 special? Any load data? I know according to the burn rate charts I've seen that this powder isnt as "fast" as 231 or bullseye but I assume the difference in burn rate iant that significant(?).

Okay, let's start at the beginning...first of all, what firearm are you using?

Secondly, just how large are the groups you are firing?

Thirdly, what are you using for a rest?

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Im using a Rossi 38. Groups have been around 6-8". I havent been using a rest as i want to get the most accurate load I can while shooting the gun as I would be shooting it in real life, not resting on a bench. But, maybe i should try a rest of some sort just to see.

Since you are not using a rest of any sort, I would suggest that you start.

In addition, I'll also bet you are using all chambers in the cylinder! When working up a load for a revolver you use the SAME chamber for all shots. (A 5-shot revolver and a 6 shot revolver is the same as 5 or 6 different guns when working up loads and using all chambers...)

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http://stevespages.com/page8.htm

No, actually i have been using the same chamber when testing my loads. What kind of rest would you recommend i try? Just a table and some sandbags or some sort of special device i could get from somewhere like midwayusa? Any thing you could tell me about using a rest would be great as I know nothing about using one. I rely on this forum for advice since i know no one that reloads. Sorry if I'm asking too many questions....

Ask away! That's what we are here for.

ZM

[This message has been edited by Zeke (edited 02-17-2002).]

Rob,
Keyholing occurs when the bore is oversize for the bullet and the bullet does not pick up enough spin to stabilise. On the target, the hole appears slightly oval and in extreme cases the bullet hits the target completely sideways and leaves a side profile shaped hole.

The following is not intended to offend and comes from 25 years of general gunsmithing and teaching defensive handgun classes. I would personally not shoot +p loads in a Rossi 38 2". It will shoot loose very quickly.

You also have to remove your shooting ability from the equation first. Two things to do: Take a friend to the range with you and let him load the revolver at random with empty brass in some of the holes and live ammo in the rest without you looking. Fire the revolver and pay attention to the front sight when the trigger breaks. You do not want any movement of the sight when the trigger breaks on an empty case. If you are flinching at the break, load all emties and dry fire till the condition goes away. Everyone is afflicted with this at some stage and it is best to recognise it sooner than later and fix it quick. Second thing: If you are sure you are not flinching the shots, then shoot off a sandbag. With a snubby 38, 2" groups at 15 are about as good as it gets for a factory gun.

Over time I have found that 90% of handgun accuracy problems are driver related and that is why I recommend this to you. I used to build IPSC race guns and and even guys shooting at national level with pistols I built, would regularly become afflicted with the flinch. Keep us posted.

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Gerard Schultz
GS Custom Bullets

robv60

What load did You use and how did You reach it?
In order to sort out the best chamber , i suggest that You shoot 25 rounds, with factory ammo (the most accurate You have tried) at five targets, mark one chamber and always shoot that one at target #1, second chamber in line at target #2 etc, etc.
Sit as comfortably as possible and use as much rest for Yourself and Your gun.

When trimming brass, You only need to find the shortest case and trim all others to that length. check from time to time that the brass do not exceed max length ( I have never seen much expansion on 38 special brass)

All the best

//Jens

[This message has been edited by jthessen (edited 02-17-2002).]

Wow, the load data i was using said to start out at 6.2 and go through 7.0! I have had some trouble finding load data for VihtaVuori powders. I looked at their website, in the Modern Reloading book that came with my kit, The lyman 47th, all over the internet and in one of the single caliber data manuals. The single caliber manual that i have had much higher loads than anywhere else so i was a little reluctant to try them. I started out at 6.2 and worked up to 6.8 working up .2 grains at a time before i decided to try 6.2 again. Where did you see this load data for N350 , I would like to look at it. I did see some loads in the Seirra manual yesterday while i was shopping for powder. It was the first time i had gotten my hands on the Seirra manual so i flipped to the 38 special section and glanced it over. Seemd like a good manual. If my memory serves my correctly, the loads listed in the Sierra book were about the same as what i have been seeing give or take .1-2 grains.
Anyway, to answer the question of keyholing....never had a problem with it. All my shots make a nice round hole in the paper. No oval shaped or side profile looking shots at all. I understand what you're saying about flinching. I tried the technique you describe a while back with a shooting buddy of mine and I was amazed at how much i flinched! I *thought* I had gotten it pretty much under control but it would probably be a good idea to try it again. I appreciate the advice, i havent thought about flinching much lately.
I have also considered replacing my 2" barrel with a 3". I found a company online that sells parts for Rossi revolvers. Does anyone know of any other companies that would sell parts for a Rossi? I'm more comfortable with the 2 inch for carry purposes but it would be neat to see if a 3" would make a big difference in accuracy. 4" are just uncomfortable to me.

robv60
Don�t use the data i printed, it was from a free (39 pages) booklet, it must be old since the wedsite states the load data You have.

It is a good practise to compare data from more than one manual (mumble)

I am sorry for the incorrect info i will edit it now.

//Jens

I had heard that the single caliber manuals like the one i have are typically "behind" on the current load data put out by the manufacturers listed in them. Like 1-2 versions behind. I was told i should only use it more for reference rather than for the actual data contained within it. Thanks for clarifying where you saw the data!

This sound right to you guys? I was looking through my Lyman manual for loads with the IMR 700x and the OAL for this load (125 grain bullet)was 1.470", case trim top length 1.149". Still under the maximum OAL of 1.55". So i sat down and began adjusting my die with an uncharged/unprimed case just to get an idea of what i would be looking at. I'm using Hornady XTPJHP and seated at this depth(1.470"), the cannelure of the bullet is outside of the case neck entirely. Lyman lists Hornady HP as the jacketed bullet used for 125 grain bullets of .357 caliber. Should this cartridge be shot if the cannelure is set completely outside of the case neck after seating?. Seems somewhat iffy to me....

For a rest, the best you can get is a Ransom, but I doubt you wanna spend that kind of cash. You can use a couple of sandbags...anything that will eliminat the human factor.

Now...here is what I suggest...

For 110 grain bullets Blue Dot From 7.8 grains to 11.3 grains with CCI-550 Primer.

For 125 grain bullets Blue Dot From 7.3 grains to 10.7 grains CCI-550 Primer.

Yes, CCI-550 primers...not a typo.

As for the crimp, put it in the crimping groove. OAL is not that important when using small bullets in the .38 Special...as long as they are all the same.

I would be careful at the upper ends of the loads, since the little Rossi will start to loosen-up and spring the crane with +P loads.

As a matter of fact, check and see if it is loosing its index now. It doesn't take too many "hot" loads to put a small .38 out of commission. (I managed to destroy three old model S&W 36's in less than 20 rounds each...and one Model 38 in less than 5 rounds!)

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Rob I'll make a suggestion that hasnt been made yet. If you are serious about target shooting and reloading then go out and buy a decent target revolver, at least a SW 686, or Ruger GP100 class wheelgun. And with at least a 4" tube.

Your getting all hung up about accuracy with what amounts to a cheap belly gun. If you want to "self defense" practice with the Rossi then just put a quarter on its top ramp and practice, at home, dry shooting it , useing proper breath and trigger control & sighting on a 8' away target, while keeping the quarter balanced on top of it.

Dont even get hung up working up loads with this gun, especially +P ones. Your better off buying a tin of cheap Low Pressure gun-mag ammo and practiceing belly shooting at 8'.

To really learn about reloading, and shooting, buy a decent gun that can handle the load.

I'll give you one more piece of advice, always open your mouth and breath thru your mouth before you shoot a handgun. Do it until its second nature, and automatic, the lack of H2O is what shuts your brain down and narrows your depth field.

Ive seen guys get into shootings, keeping their teeth clenched down hard,and hyperventilateing thru the nose, its no wonder they didnt hit anything, or never saw the other bad guy.

I even breath thru my mouth when shooting a rifle. I never hold my breath when shooting.

Forget the tight groups with the Rossi, and good luck to you..........10

Well, I have actually been thinking of trding my 38 for a larger frame 357 and shooting 38's in it, but then i figured, hell why shoot 38's if you have a 357,you know? I'm not wanting to have incredibly tight groups from really far out, i would just like to be able to shoot as well with my reloads as i do with factory ammo. Dont get me wrong , i do want a great deal of consistant accuracy with my reloads. It wouldnt do much good if i went out to practice shooting with loads that were so inaccurate that i couldnt improve my shooting ability no matter what i did. My main concern is getting *at least* the type of results i have had while shooting factory ammo. That way, i can shoot more using cartridges that perform as close as possible to my preferred factory choice. So far i havent had anywhere near the results i would like to have, simply because I'm doing something wrong or my component selections arent what they should be for my gun. I believe that handloads are FAR superior to factory cartridges, if you load them well. I'm still learning. However, the more i get into handloading, the more and more i want to try loading for competition level accuracy with a better gun. Sounds more fun every minute.....

Rob, I've seen some good advice here, and some opinions. A year ago I traded off my Rossi 88, but did not find THIS MODEL in any way lacking It was not loose, and I had shot about 7000 rds through it--500 or so were Fed 158 gr. hollow point lead +p. I never would have bought a Rossi on purpose--I got it in a trade. It shot about 2" at 15 yds off an inexpensive midway rest--close to what my wifes S&W 649 tuned snub does. I think that if you want to have a .38 snub for self defense, the Rossi is as good as any. Another guy from Oregon suggested that you go to faster powder. I concur, and use bullseye or w231 . In my Rossi, I found it happy with heavy bullets and fairly moderate loads (3.2 gr. Bullseye). My Rugers, Smiths, and Taurus do well with 125s and 3.5 gr. bullseye. I would strongly suggest you get the Lyman Book--It suggests traditionally accurate powders and bullets and contains a wealth of good info. I am partial to hardcast lead bullets--from Oregon Trails or Bull-X. Excellent accuracy. When selecting ammo for my self defense guns, I look for proven bullet designs, reliability and accuracy---trying several out to make sure they work well in the gun. I try not to decide before I choose. Corbon .40 135s work really well in my K40 but are terrible in a friends Glock---You must see what works best in YOUR gun before you trust your life to it.
You will, of course have to get a nice 4-6 in. good quality revolver far target shooting. I too prefer GP 100 or a 686. Reloading is fun, and gives you more reason to go shooting. Your equipment is all fine--so go try different powders, then bullets (One Change at a time) and have fun. By the way, the snubs are really designed for shooting at close range---21' or less!

I actually do have the Lyman book. I really like this manual. Its thorugh and as\nswered alot of questions that other manuals didnt. I will probably get some Win231 here in the next week or so. My local supplier was all sold out of it and Bullseye, so I went with IMR 700. I have heard great things about 231 as well as bullseye. My Rossi is a good gun in my opinion. I shoot VERY well with it. Alot better than i expected to when i first got it after all the negative remarks a good friend of mine had to say about snubbies. He has shot it and was suprised at how well he shot with it. I would love to have a Sp 101 .357, and actually looked at one today. .357's are hard to come by around here for some reason, thats why i went with the Rossi 38. Since i bought it, it has really grown on my and i wouldnt want to get rid of it. Like i said before Im not striving for match grade accuracy with THIS gun. I mainly reload so I can practice more. I want my reloads to closely mimic the factory ammo i keep in my gun when I carry. That way, if I ever have to use my gun in a real life situation, i can be absolutely sure that I will get the same results with the factory ammo as i do with the reloads i practice with.

I loaded my first cartridges with my new IMR 700X toady. I got pretty good results, there is room for improvement however. I loaded 10 cartridges and shot all 10. They felt a little light in the recoil dept. but grouped fairly well. All sexpect the last shot. It felt really light in recoil and it didnt feel natural at all. So i removed the case and to my surprise....I now have a bullet sticking about halfway out of the end of my barrel! Damn. Looks like its going to be a trip to the gunsmith for me. I really dont know what caused this. I weighed out my charges and crimped all my cases. I must not have crimped it as tight as I thought i did. Just didnt puch the lever doen on my press far enough i guess. Who knows.