I have hunted mule deer and elk for more than 45years now and have used my .270win. For deer I've used a 130gr Sierra BTS loaded to right at 3100 fps (59-60gr of H4831). For Elk a 140 or 150gr Sierra or lately a 140gr Barnes XBT. The XBT hit the elk (180yrds) in the chest, taking the top of the heart, one lung and stopping at the diaphram. The animal walked a few yards and fell over.
However, this year I'd like to use my Savage12 LFH with a (.308win). I fitted a Choate stock with a 6.5 x20-50mm Leupold with the varmint reticle. I loaded some 150gr A-Max rounds and shot the best group of my life, a .16" 5 shot group. The rifle is heavy but I thought I'd give it a go.
I just happen to have a box of Hornaday 168gr A-Max laying around. Are these bullets tough enough to take a cow elk? I come from a group of thought that think that bullets that shot though and through "waste" a lot of energy. A 30 cal hole in and a slightly larger hole out. I'd much rather have a bullet that spends it's energy all in the animal. What are your thoughts. Remember a cow elk isn't a thousand pound bull.

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168 GR A-MAX for cow elk??

I'd still find a better bullet.....the old interlock isn't much different in cost and shoots almost as well!

i''ll 2nd use another bullet,load some 150 tsx in your 308,more fps,and 100% weight retension,whats not to like,or 150 nosler partition would work,what if that 168 blows up on bone?regards...

I want to say that I've seen somewhere that Hornady has said these bullets can be used on smaller game like deer and pronghorn, but I can't find it.

I've never shot a cow elk, but I would think that a bit stouter bullet would be a good idea. I'm a big TSX fan. You ought to be able to get 2900 fps or so with a 150 TSX that would be more than adequate for such game and you wouldn't need to worry about a less than ideal shot.

Of course, if you are willing to take only a brain shot or a side-on lung shot, they would probably work just fine.

LWD

Seems like the consensous is that the A-Max isn't enough bullet. So I'll religate it to the target range. I'll pick up some Nosler Partitions. Thanks

I am using the 168gr AMAX in my 300Whisper. They are comming apart at 1600FPS in 12inches of gel.

If I was in your shoes I would be thinking about a partition bullet or at least a JSP.

While often quite accurate, the A-Max is extremely fragile at rifle velocities. I use them for smaller deer in small-to-medium capacity 6.5s which develop 2350-2500 fps at the muzzle, and even at this reduced speed, they are quite frangible. But a 6.5, 140 grain projectile vs. the ribcage of a 125 pound deer -- well, simple physics dictate that it will work even if the bullet comes apart.

But for a cow elk, something stouter is certainly in order.

Spend the money, time, and energy to sight in and hunt with a premium elk bullet.

it isn't that a 168gr bullet isn't "enough bullet for cow elk"

It's that the particular 168gr 30cal bullet isn't designed for that purpose.

a 165gr Nosler accubond or partition of a barnes TSx would be a different story.

AD

I think I knew the answer before I posted the question, It's just that I bought a bunch of bullets on e-bay a few months ago and wanted to use them up. By the way did you all see that e-bay is not going to allow the auction of barrels, brass, anything that has to do with "GUNS".

http://www2.ebay.com/aw/core/200707.shtml#2007-07-30094109

I bought brass, cast bullets, for my pistols, barrels, you name it. They just lost a bunch of busines and respect. What fine people they are....

Back to the question at hand, I also have a box of Barnes 140 grain in .270win already loaded, that I used on my last cow elk, if the Savage12 is to heavy to use.

I was surprised that none of you picked up on the question of through and through, and wasted energy. What are your thoughts regarding the Barnes passing straight thru. Isn't alot of the energy the bullet has wasted by not coming apart spending all of it's energy inside the animal?

Thanks for all the replies......

SOme like the bullet/enregy in the animal theory & some like the exit wound. I don't think there is a real energy transfer to the animal unless bone is hit. Much of the energy is used to deform the bullet, some trasnfers to the animal but not enough to say you are "waisting" it w/ a through & through.
If the bullet is too "hard" it pencils through & does little tissue damage, much like shooting a target point arrow instead of a broadhead. Same vel. & energy but far more damage if the bullet expands. A bullet like the Amax or SMK MAY give you perfect rsults, but it may also pencil through or break apart before reaching vitals, especially if bone is hit. Tiny groups are fine but the bullet does the killing so for a 500#+ cow, I would want at least a 165gr NP or NAB. They may not shoot sub 1/2moa but who cares at most hunting distances?

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Originally posted by AI22-250:

I was surprised that none of you picked up on the question of through and through, and wasted energy. What are your thoughts regarding the Barnes passing straight thru. Isn't alot of the energy the bullet has wasted by not coming apart spending all of it's energy inside the animal?

Thanks for all the replies......

Whether the bullet exits or not it's all about damage to vital organs and/or the nervous system... If the bullet doesn't make it to the heart, lung or other vital areas it would've been better to miss the animal completely...

Either rifle will do, just use a premium bullet and place the shot well...

Ken....

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I was surprised that none of you picked up on the question of through and through, and wasted energy. What are your thoughts regarding the Barnes passing straight thru. Isn't alot of the energy the bullet has wasted by not coming apart spending all of it's energy inside the animal?

I think that's an oversimplification of what the bullet does. Different makes and types of bullets work differently.

A TSX, which typically penetrates far enough to pass completely through on most shots, doesn't just "pass through" the animal. It opens to approximately double its diameter with four rather sharp petals that are spinning at 2000+ revolutions per second (depending on velocity, barrel twist, et cet.). It's like driving a very small, high speed blender through the animal. The first time I shot a deer with one, I centerpunched the heart, and the heart and all but part of one lung drained out of the deer. Try one, and you will not worry about "wasted energy" again.

Some of the other premium bullets work similarly. An A-Frame or a Northfork is built to power through anything in its way. Where the A-Max would detonate on the shoulder, one of these will smash it, keep on trucking, and do the same to the offside shoulder.

On the other hand, lighter, more frangible bullets will kill by tissue detonation. A good friend for whom I load swears by Nosler Ballistic Tips in his 257 Weatherby. (I keep trying to get him to let me load some Accubonds, but he says no.) He uses the gun only on ligher animals, less than roughly 300 pounds, and is very particular about shot placement. He is an excellent shot and won't take a shot he's not certain off. He gets instant kills on virtually everything, but he's taking only heart/lung shots and rarely gets an exit wound. However, the tissue devastation is substantial. These bullets at that velocity would be a very poor choice for a high shoulder shot.

But note that neither bullet works as simply as the "debate" would suggest. The Ballistic Tip doesn't kill for my friend because it deposits all its energy in the animal. Rather, it kills by massive tissue destruction in the chest cavity of the animal. The TSX doesn't "waste" it's energy on the ground beyond. Rather, it kills by using its energy and velocity to work in the manner it was designed to.

Other bullets represent something of a compromise between the two extremes of penetration and devastation. The Accubond and Partition are examples. They will shed some weight (upwards of 1/3) but in a controlled way and still offer excellent penetration. The Nosler Partition has been around for almost 60 years because it is, IMHO, a tremendous bullet that offers much from both worlds.

So it's really a question of what you want the bullet for and how you want it to work. Using a stouter and heavier bullet gives you more options. But do you want to pay for the premium bullets, do you need the premium bullets, et cet.

LWD

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What are your thoughts regarding the Barnes passing straight thru. Isn't alot of the energy the bullet has wasted by not coming apart spending all of it's energy inside the animal?

I used to subscribe to this theory.....and I think the early Nosler ballistic tips did too....Hornady followed suit with the SST!!!!

Today I see it very differently.....I want the bullet to exit as I discovered that all the energy dumped in the animal still didn't cause DRT.....and then I discovered the value of two holes......TRACKING!!!!!

IMO the best bullet mushrooms, takes out the stuff in it's path, and exits leaving a good blood train in case the animal goes a hundred yards or so! So far my experience is that I'm getting as many DRT with exiting bullets as I did with the BTs and SSTs!

vapodog ----- Tracking, that's my point, why are you tracking an animal at all. I've never had a mule deer (more than 50 of them} walk more than a few yards, when hit with a good old Sierra 130gr. BTS, from my 270win. Most either dropped on the spot or jumped straight in the air a ran a few yards before droping.

Why do you have to Track an animal if the bullet did it's job?

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Why do you have to Track an animal if the bullet did it's job?

simply because they don't always do their job....and it only takes once to learn the lesson.

It's all a tradeoff somewhere. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch as the economists say.

Pay more for premium bullets.

Use "standard" bullets and perhaps have to pass on a less than ideal shot.

Carry a lighter caliber and perhaps pass on a longer or marginal shot.

Pack a .375 H&H for everything and put up with the added weight and recoil.


I couldn't agree with Vapodog more. Bullets will do some strange and unexpected things and occasionally suffer a manufacturing defect. I certainly don't shoot premium bullets for practice, but I hunt with them for a variety of reasons.

LWD

This thread is about using a target bullet for cow elk.....when you or I or anyone goes elk hunting (even cows) ...it's your money....your hunt....your turn to do it anyway you want!

You can use the gun you want...the ammo you want and anything else you want and it's 100% your business and no one else!..,.same for me.....and I want a bullet likely to give me an exit wound.

Target (A-Max, Matchkings etc) bullets are not that bullet.

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Target (A-Max, Matchkings etc) bullets are not that bullet.

I would not put all target bullets in the same catagory.

Admitidly, I am playing with a 300-221;
The 168gr Amax are very effective at the speeds I am shooting them at. They produce the most distruction with the tumble and being fragile.

The 169gr SMK, 220gr SMK, 240gr SMK, do not fragment. The 220gr and 240gr were subsonic. The 169gr was pushed hard (for whisper) and looks almost factory fresh.

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Originally posted by AI22-250:
Seems like the consensous is that the A-Max isn't enough bullet. So I'll religate it to the target range. I'll pick up some Nosler Partitions. Thanks

Whether a bullet that "uses all its' energy in the animal" is better than one that goes through depends on what that bullet does with that energy. If the energy is used up destroying a lot of vital tissue, then it will do a good job. if it blows up and makes a big crater on the surface with little penetration, then it is not so good. Although your Nosler partition bullets may go all the way through, they generally do severe damage to whatever they go through to get to the other side.

I once shot a 300+ pound black bear at around 200 yards with a .277", 150-grain Nosler Partition bullet. The bullet hit at the rear rib on the left side as the bear was slightly quartering away, and it ranged forward, broke the right shoulder, travelled down the right leg, and I found it under the skin of the wrist joint. It had broken back at forth through the leg bone twice before stopping at the wrist joint.

Hoiwever, the main thing I noticved on cleaning the bear was that everything forward of the diaphraghm of that poor bear was a bloody soup. Nothing larger than a quarter was remaining! Had the bullet not gone down the leg bone, no doubt it would have exited!

He could always use Serria Match kings. the same old story.

Vapodog - I original simply wanted to know what the 168gr. A-Max would be suitable for. I shouldn't have tied it to the elk hunt I have later this year. Like I said a few posts ago, I bought a bunch of bullets on e-bay (for the last time, it looks like).

p dog shooter, the 168's WILL be used for little dogs now........

One more question? Do you think temp. change, say from 0 deg F to 85-90 deg F, will have an effect on a bullets structure, enough to change it's effect on an animal as it passes through? I wonder how much of a temp. rise a bullet has from hot gases and travel through the Atm. Not the powder or primer, just the bullet.

I wouldn't expect much if any difference.

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Do you think temp. change, say from 0 deg F to 85-90 deg F, will have an effect on a bullets structure, enough to change it's effect on an animal as it passes through?

No. I think the temp of the bullet as it spins through the resistance of the air will be much higher than that anyway.

We have use 150 Gr AMAX on Hogs... killed them dead... but not much left of the bullet. Given I have Never hunted Elk... Use accubonds. In My son & My rifles they shoot as well as AMAX

Ill 2nd that,the accubond is a premium deep penetrating bullet,they are a class act,in my opinion the AMAX is hornadys version of the nosler ballistic tip,Ive always liked the ballistic tip but a lot of hunters dont,rumor has it that they have a tendency to blow apart on the surface,a professional hunter I was listening to said this type bullet was not a good choice for shooting thru heavy bone and muscle for that reason,but in his opinion if the hunter were going to shoot his animal thru the lungs he thought this AMAX/Ballistic tip type bullet was about as good as it gets,they might not be my first choice but I wouldnt be scared to use them .......