I saw a thread a while back posted by Seafire I think about loading BlueDot in certain rifle calibers, I believe .223, for reduced loads. It seems he was catching a lot of flack about promoting the combination. Some of the posts responding to him were saying that you may blow up your barrel....

Well, I have in my hands the February issue of Handloader Magazine. It has a lengthy article on the subject of reduced loads written by John Haviland. The data he gives is interesting and made me think of the Seafire/Bluedot subject. There is data in the article for .30-06 loads with Green Dot, Unique, and other fast burning powders. There is data for the 7 mag, .30-06, .300 win mag, .338 win mag all using powders considered too fast for the normal cartridge.

No Blue Dot though, but as far as I know, Seafire was loading it in smaller calibers. The article seems to make sense of Seafire's Blue Dot usage.

Just FYI......

I know I am going to regret this, BUT
You better have your shit together when you start putting pistol or shotgun powder into high powered rifle cases. I have done it and I still do but this is no recommendation for doing it. Handling the fast powders is not as forgiving for error as the slower buening powders where a double charge of slow burning powder is almost impossible. It is not a pactice that those with an attention defict disorder should try to handle.

It can be prudently handled but there are no gaurantees That there won't be a hic-cup roger

While Roger's observations are true, loading light requires fast powders for any decent accuracy.

Thing is, powders don't burn very consistantly until they reach the pressures they were designed for. Reduced speeds require light (for the weapon) charges of fast burning powder or those pressures cannot be attained.

Using easily ignited pistol or shotgun powders for low velocity loads IS less forgiving of foolishness than charges of say, 4831. But it's safe when done with due care.

All cast bullet data for rifles will use faster than normal powders. I used to make a medium speed 200 gr. cast bullet load for my O3-A3 using a pistol powder, 2400, did thousands of them!

Just don't do it without peeking into the charged cases, every single one of them, to confirm that the powder columes are consistant before seating. You can't miss any doubled charged case if you do that!

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
I know I am going to regret this, BUT
You better have your shit together when you start putting pistol or shotgun powder into high powered rifle cases. I have done it and I still do but this is no recommendation for doing it. Handling the fast powders is not as forgiving for error as the slower buening powders where a double charge of slow burning powder is almost impossible. It is not a pactice that those with an attention defict disorder should try to handle.

It can be prudently handled but there are no gaurantees That there won't be a hic-cup roger

If you weigh all your charges before you drop them, what's the problem????



More pot stirrin'

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
If you weigh all your charges before you drop them, what's the problem????

Problem is, that also the Challenger, the Hindenburg and Tchernobyl blew up even though it was thought technically impossible.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim C. <><:
Just don't do it without peeking into the charged cases, every single one of them, to confirm that the powder columes are consistant before seating. You can't miss any doubled charged case if you do that!

Jim knows what he is talking about, some VERY good advice.

I did many reduced rifle loads for the .222, .338 WM, 8x75RS and the 9.3x74 R with different powders, I always look with a flash light.

As also mentioned by Jim, they are not at all low pressure loads, the pressure spike or, for the more mathematically inclined, the surface under the the pressure curve that represents the physical work is just shorter than with slower powders.

The problem is you can put two or even three weighed charges of Blue Dot in one case. You thought you had already charged the case but you got distracted and charged it again. Now you have an extremely high pressure charge.

I have some photos coming soon of someone who did just that and it was catastrophic.

I am not saying don't do it, I'm saying that if you use reduced loads of fast powder, MAKE SURE you do not double charge your brass. Check, double check, and check them again and make sure there are no double (or even worse) a triple charge.

Also, be patient when working up loads with Blue Dot. Start LOW and work up GRADUALLY, looking for pressure signs every step of the way.

I don't shoot reduced loads. In fact, I like to shoot the highest velocity load for my gun that is the most accurate.

I just read the article in Handloader and it reminded me of all the back and forth between Seafire and the opponents of his reduced loads. I had never heard of doing what he was advocating, and after I read the article, it seems he's not off his rocker.

I'm sure it can be dangerous for the reasons posted, but also useful if done properly and safely.

I don't do it, it was just something interesting to talk about........

I enjoy everybody's sharing of knowledge on these forums. Everyone is willing to help each other and I've learned a lot.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
If you weigh all your charges before you drop them, what's the problem????

Nothing at all as long as you don't dump two weighed charges in one case.

One thing I do is use a graduated dowel to measure powder hight in each case. In fact I sent two of these dowels of different sizes to Sea Fire. Don't know if he ever used them, however. roger

I guess if he's still alive he did!

ha!

Well put bartsche.

Take heed of what bartsche says - He is a very wise man!

quote:

It is not a pactice that those with an attention defict disorder should try to handle.

It's called Murphy's Law.

It states; If anything can go wrong, it will!

When I was playing around with reduced loads I made sure the load I was using would be safe at double charge and overflow at tripple charge (or overflow at double charge).
Recently I was using a reduced charge for fire-lapping. Powder was H4227/AR2205 in a 303 Brit. Once or twice the 'bullet' jammed in the throat (and had to be drilled out). The pressure from this charge with nowhere to go did not even come close to dangerous. The pistol primers I was using showed light pistol pressure. The seal was so good that when I opened the bolt there was still a little pressure in the case. (This is a weired thing - the striker falls and there is absolutely nothing! The chamber gets warm and that is all. Wait a while and open and there is the hiss of escaping gas).

quote:

In fact I sent two of these dowels of different sizes to Sea Fire. Don't know if he ever used them, however.

Roger,

Yes I do use them all the time.. they are on my reload bench in the upper left corner with the important stuff...

While tons of data exists for powders faster than Blue Dot it is not used as often as Red Dot and Green Dot or Unique.. all also made by Alliant...

Loading Blue Dot in rifle cases takes no more discipline than loading faster powders in pistol cases...and faster powders are about all that is used in pistols...

2400 and H 110 are about the slowest powders used in pistols...

any safety issues using blue dot is strictly discipline at the reload bench....

and if you worry that the pressure of your load might be too high.. do what one would do with any other powder... back off your charge weight...

ANY powder has its safe limits and its unsafe limits.. it is the responsiblity of the handloader to be aware of what those are...
and that doesn't matter what powder you use in what case...

Townsend Whelen and folks in his day advocated the use of faster powders in rifles, to add to flexibility to a cartridge...

in today's world ran by lawyers and chicken littles.. to many people are afraid of something that is not published in a book, and 'tested' with zillion dollar pieces of equipment...

if you fall into that group, no problem...

what I don't understand is those same people criticising others that might have a different view....

it all boils down to discipline and understanding... ARE we saying guys who load pistols are either smarter or more risk taking than those of us that load rifles???

any reduce load is a choice... if it isn't your choice then don't mess with it... but where do folks come off criicizing those that do something different..

I highly encourage anyone that wants to do reduced loads read and consult with Hot Core...

That way you have both the pros and the cons, and you can feel free to make up your own mind...and at that point, no one has the right to judge you for wanting to do it or declining to do it...

I never put out this info to start a craze or fad, nor have I used it for my own financial benefit...

I found out something good and therefore shared it with my fellow forum members.. I took my time, energy and expense to find out where the points were to stop.. and how low someone could go without getting a squibb load, as that was requested by folks...

SO I still put out Blue Dot info.. I am determined to advise folks to hear Hot Core's side of it...

I have also advised people of doing work with other powders to achieve the same results.. powders that info does exist and has existed for, for years.. such as SR 4759...or my original reduced load powder both 4198s....

Reduced rifle loads take no more discipline than loading pistol cases... however too many naythsayers don't see it that way...

I don't see the reasons that folks want to argue over this....

but I deifinitely don't see the good caused by claiming that someone is going to get killed by doing this, as if I am promoting it for that very outcome....

but HotCore has every right to his opinion.. and I highly recomomend folks read it and then you can make up your own mind.. and have the comfort of knowing it is your choice... not someone else's...

Good luck to whoever wants to try reduced loads or declines to do reduced loads..

Well put, seafire2. Actually, this whole thread has been very wisely advising of being cautious, exersizing discipline at the loading bench and knowing what you are doing!

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:


it all boils down to discipline and understanding... ARE we saying guys who load pistols are either smarter or more risk taking than those of us that load rifles???

Not at all.The truth of the matter is I personally have never seen a rifle come apart because of an "accidental" loading issue; close but no cigar. I have, however, been there when some revolvers blew up because of overloads. I guess wether pistol or whatever it can happen, and will sooner or later if not already.

303 Guy your right this thread has been handled nicely. roger

Hey you guys,

I posted something on the shooting/benchrest forum I think you should check out. I see a lot of you long range guys are replying to this thread.

It's about a rifle match called "The Sporting Rifle Match"

Like Sporting Clays is to shotgun sports this match is to the rifle sports. I'm going to go to NRA Whittington Center here in NM and check it out. It sounds like a ton of fun!!!!!!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by DUK:

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
If you weigh all your charges before you drop them, what's the problem?

Problem is, that also the Challenger, the Hindenburg and Tchernobyl blew up even though it was thought technically impossible.

Not that it applies much to this discussion but the STS, the Hindenburg, and Chernobyl were all accidents waiting to happen. The engineers knew it, the adminstrators refused to admit it.

I've farted around with a few reduced loads in big rifle cases - .300 Win, .338 Win and .375-338.

In the .300 Win I was trying to duplicate .30-30 ballistics. In the .338, 33 Win and .375 Win in the .375-338.

I've used Unique, W231, IMR-3031 and SR-4759. IMR-3031 gave me hangfires in the .300 Win. Major delayed iginition.

Took me a while to find this bookmark. Talks about using double-based pistol powder in rifle cases. A good read on this subject:

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

quote:

Originally posted by MuskegMan:


Took me a while to find this bookmark. Talks about using double-based pistol powder in rifle cases. A good read on this subject:

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

Great info. Thank you. roger

Very good read,thanks MuskegMan!!

I really aint got no dog in this fight because I load shotgun powders in my shotguns.
If you do use it why dont you charge a case and seat the bullet right THEN. I know this is a little more time consuming but you might call it LIFE preserving. If you are reducing loads it could be for a wife or youngster. Are they worth that chance?

Muskeg Man-

That link is a good read, and especially follow the other link on that page about loading pistol powders in rifles. Very good information. I stumbled across that data several months ago when I was researching the same subject. It really seemed to put my mind much more at ease since I understood how the powders were actually burning. It should be a required read for anyone wanting to make reduced loads with pistol powders in rifles. I believe the main issue with safety is always understanding the process you are working with.

Might be a good read but when looking at 25 yd group sizes with revolvers, they are dismal. I would sell those guns in a second or get off that bandwagon at the first shot.
The whole exercise was to see what goes "bang" without regard to what a gun needs to shoot to it's potential. Most groups I would considered to be poor at 200 yd's.
I have to go look at the rifle loads yet.
I see no use whatsoever for a powder in any shell that is just wrong.
Where has the quest for accuracy gone?

This is the part of the afementioned link I was referring to.

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

And as far as being inaccurate, the Blue Dot .223 loads I am using are some of the most accurate loads to ever go down the bore of that rifle.

quote:

If you do use it why dont you charge a case and seat the bullet right THEN.

That is exactly what I do and I do it on an RCBS single stage press even though I also have a couple of Dillon progressives. By measuring, pouring and seating immediately in sequence before going on to the next cartridge you can prevent double charging.

quote:

Originally posted by aerostarp:

quote:

If you do use it why dont you charge a case and seat the bullet right THEN.

That is exactly what I do and I do it on an RCBS single stage press even though I also have a couple of Dillon progressives. By measuring, pouring and seating immediately in sequence before going on to the next cartridge you can prevent double charging.

You can easily double charge a case inadvertently and you will never know it.
The best way to avoid a double charge with a fast burning powder is to check all the cases after charging.
Even a progressive is prone to bridging with some powders. When you get a bridge a small amount may make it into the case and most of 2 charges will go into the second case. You will not know the difference unless you look or have some sort of lock out device.

quote:

By measuring, pouring and seating immediately in sequence before going on to the next cartridge you can prevent double charging.

quote:

You can easily double charge a case inadvertently and you will never know it.

I'm with SR4759 on this one! A dog barks in the background, a phone rings, anything - and you have a double charge! Not everytime maybe, but one day .... and then .... ? Most of the time it will be an empty case. Sometimes that empty case will result in a bulged barrel - not always. Most of the time that bullet lodged in the bore is detected but not every time. But if that lodged bullet is in a rifle .... ?

Different opinions here! My friend got distracted loading one at a time. He missed the powder. Shooting his .41 Ruger fast, he shot another behind a stuck boolit and destroyed his gun.
I made him use a block and told him to look into EVERY shell before seating any boolits. Visual confirmation with a flashlight looking into EVERY case.
I NEVER load one shell at a time. I charge all the cases in a block and inspect all of them. Then I put the measure or scale away and seat boolits.

quote:

I NEVER load one shell at a time

Well - I do and I think it is the safest method. After pouring with a funnel and with the case in my hand I pick up the bullet and get to see the powder directly before seating the bullet and then putting it into the one-stage press.

i think everyone goes through different methods and comes up with the one that works for them. the important thing is to try to come up with a method that is consistent and eliminates chances for errors.

quote:

Well - I do and I think it is the safest method.

Yup. I did it that way too. I did get a few empty cases and I did get a few primerless cases. I have never had a primerless case nor an empty case with the block method. I'm with bfrshooter on this one. I would say that some people will have no problems with either method due to their power of concentration or level of alertness but I am quite convinced that the odds are in favour of the block method. I am a low alertness person and I have no choice but to eliminate every chance of error - this applies to driving a car too (and I have fewer mishaps on the road than some high alertness folks - like none!)

quote:

Originally posted by tasunkawitko:
i think everyone goes through different methods and comes up with the one that works for them. the important thing is to try to come up with a method that is consistent and eliminates chances for errors.

Yes, like in big scale manufacturing it is make sense to standardize your process and stick to it.

It makes also sense to follow another industry procedure and check quality (read here: safety) twice, once during manufacturing (here: powder throwing) plus a separate quality control when it's done (here: before setting your bullet).

Then, just follow through and never mess with that process.

That should reduce your risk from 0.1% to maybe 0.001%. For that reason you wear glasses when you shot.

I use reduced loads for practice. As a safety precaution, I usually avoid charges light enough to make a double charge possible.

If the powder is overflowing the case it will be hard to miss, even on a progressive press.

This process also prevents you from using extremely light loads in very large cases.

Cheers,

Dan

TrailBoss should eliminate the chance of a double charge in most instances? 2.5CC dipper only goes about 12 grains....just about right for light bullets in my 25-06. I cannot get 2 scoops in that case.

Best,
Mark

Not to be smart a$$ but if you want to minimize risk then don't reload. If you want to eliminate risk then don't go shooting. That way your probabilty of anything happening is 0%.

Since I like to both shoot and reload reduced loads using fast powders, here is what I came up with to take risk down close enough to zero to not worry about it any more.

First thing is I use is a hand dipper as opposed to a powder measure. Since I never, ever load reduce loads to anywhere near max pressure I can safely do this. I consult with Lyman reloading data and also use Quickload to verify pressure as double check.


My loading sequence is as follows:

1. Verify dipper by weighing couple charges. This eliminates grabbing wrong dipper size.

2. Case to be load is set up side down in funnel. Any powder, however it got there, falls out.

3. Dip Powder with right hand, flip funnel/case with left and pour powder into case.

4. Put dipper down, remove funnel, and place case in shell holder.

5. Seat bullet.

Some may say that this is slow process and it is but I enjoy reloading and enjoy shooting so what is the hurry. Never mix speed with Fast powders.

quote:

Originally posted by unique:2. Case to be load is set up side down in funnel. Any powder, however it got there, falls out.

I like that suggestion! I m going to be using that myself now