Just wanted some feedback on a problem I have. I have reloaded for some years now and think I know the basic stuff.
But one problem occur when seating bullets.
I have to adjust the screw on top of the seater-die up and down between every case to get accurate seating-depth. I thought I were supposed to seat one bullet to the right depth, then tighten the die and drive the other cases through pretty qiuck. But if I do that the lenght will vary.
What happens? Has this something to do with trim-length on cases. I try to get them as accurate as possible, but sometimes they`re not all exactly the same..

The first thought was your cases were not trim to the same length. But you said you checked that. The 2nd thought is that your seating die has some dirt or something in it.

If you have seated cast bullets I have seen build up of lube cause this.

I would take the die apart and clean it good and recheck case length.

I would also check the press for wear but I highly dought that.

So if the trim length is not the same on different cases the seating depth will vary, right?
Maybe a stupid question but..
If so this might be the main problem...
I think I should get some new cases now. Most of the ones I use now is from old factory ammo. When I check trim length, some need to be trimmed while others might be under the limit...

quote:

Originally posted by Anders:
So if the trim length is not the same on different cases the seating depth will vary, right?
Maybe a stupid question but..
If so this might be the main problem...
I think I should get some new cases now. Most of the ones I use now is from old factory ammo. When I check trim length, some need to be trimmed while others might be under the limit...

Trim them all to the same length after sizing. BUT, that may not be the problem either! To tell you the truth, I have never measured the O/A loaded length of EVERY cartridge in a batch I have loaded, so can't honestly say they all come out the same length when finished.

How much length variation are you getting?
Theoretically, they should all end up the same O/A loaded length, even if the cases aren't exactly identical.

What are those birds? Auerhahn and ptarmigan? Those pictures of you out on skiis reminds me of the three years I was privileged to live in Alaska......

If you are measuring from the base of the ctg. to the bullet tip, you will have differences. The length should be measured from the ogive to the brass base, Stony Point makes a tool for this, as you may already know. Bullets themselves vary in length and that is more than likely what you are measuring.

I don't think trim length has anything to do with OAL which is the measurement from shell base to ogive or meplat of bullet. The trim length is just an interim measurement that has nothing to do with OAL.

When seating a bullet I use a Stoney Point and measure to the ogive on each bullet. The bullet seater inside the die actually hits on the bullet curve between the meplat and the ogive. Some bullets vary, even at the ogive. Some bullets more than others. Typically when seating I will get a variance of only .003 - .004" at the most . I am using competition style die that have the hand turn adjustment knob on top, and after each seating, I reach up and back it out a little. That way I can seat the bullet, take the measurement to the ogive, and adjust the seater back in. That way all the bullets are seated the exact same distance from the ogives to the lands in my rifle. The OAL doesn't really matter.

These are with Barnes TSX's but on one box of Accubonds, the difference varied as much as .015".

I ran into the same problem of getting different seating depths. I cleaned the die and it works well now. I don't have any fancy equiptment but after chambering a round against the rifling I seated the bullet until the OAL was .031 shorter and started there. Works ok but will look into measuring from the ogive.

Blob1, If not most guns, a lot of them will shoot their best with the bullet closer to the lands then you are seating them. I am certainly not saying yours will, but most of the guys that I shoot bench rest with [including myself] find that the jam depth [depth that you describe when closing the bolt] is within a few thousands of the most accurate depth for that gun.

If you`re getting rhe same OAL measuring from tip to base most likely the seater is working off the bullet tip, and the ogive to base lenght will vary. The seater should contact the bullet on the ogive and as noted above will seat uniformlly from that point to the base, which is the lenght we are acually worried about. This is the distance the we need to know to seat to a desired depth off the lands. The only need to measure tip to base is to insure the cartridge will fit in your rifles mag. Try measuring with a Stoney Point, Sinclair, or other bullet comparator and you`ll likely find you are very close in your seating.

Case lenght by the way has nothing to do with OAL unless the neck is too loose to hold the bullet or too tight to seat it.

Bullets vary - some are worse than others. The old style Barnes X were (in)famous for having huge variations in base-ogive measurements.
- mike

Glad I found this topic, Ive been going throught much the same confusion, Im shooting speer 52gr BHTP through my .222 rem sako, I have just unscrewed the seater plug from the die (standard RCBS by the way) and offered up an unloaded bullet into the removed plug to find that the plug does not properly sit round the ogive of the bullet, it just balances on the meplat ever so slightly, any ideas on what I can do to sort this would be much appreciated.

Case OAL has nothing to do with Cart. OAL. You are measuring from the base to the bullet tip. The point was made that the ogive should contact the seating plug & some seating dies have fixed shaped plugs. Lee makes a good seating die soe does Hornady.

Not all bullets are created equal by any means. I used to find this frustrating then I started measuring just the bullets before seating them. There was my problem. Many would vary by as much as .015"., some cheaper bullets would probably vary by more than this. It's not important really. There's nothing out there beyond the bullet tip but empty space. What you want to be concerned with is the ogive length. If they're the same to the ogive you're home free. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

Would it be a good idea to drill a small recess in the end of the seater plug to accomodate the tip of the bullet into, so that the bullet then inturn seats itself by pressure being asserted on to the ogive rather than the tip of the bullet?

i have done a few old lyman die seaters.
Make sure you get in the center.
You can purchase diffrent seater plugs to fit the bullets nose.
Dave

quote:

Originally posted by El Deguello:
How much length variation are you getting?
.....
What are those birds? Auerhahn and ptarmigan? Those pictures of you out on skiis reminds me of the three years I was privileged to live in Alaska......

The length variation is not much. Maybe 0.003-0.004".. I guess the OA lenght shouldn`t be affected by case length, bacause the seater die seats the bullet with no contact with the case..

The birds are many different species. Ptarmigan, pigeons, capercaillie, a certain kind of grouse etc. I couldn`t find their english names. But theese pictures shows 5-6 different species. Bird hunting is great, hu?

Can someone explain me what ogive and meplate is? I think I understand.. I have measured from bottom of the case to the tip of the bullet... But the right thing is to measure from case-bottom to where the seater-die has contact with the bullet (curve), right..?
So the OAL is not from case-bottom to bullet tip, then..? I guess it is, but more important is from case-bottom to where the bullet first gets in contact with the rifled barrell..
Hope someonme can straighten this up for me.. Should know such basic stuff..

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Ol` Joe:
If you`re getting rhe same OAL measuring from tip to base most likely the seater is working off the bullet tip, and the ogive to base lenght will vary. The seater should contact the bullet on the ogive and as noted above will seat uniformlly from that point to the base, which is the lenght we are acually worried about.


Do some seater-dies make contact with the tip of the bullet, while others at the ogive (curve?)..?
Or did you mean that if they make contact with the tip, then something is wrong with the die..?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by fredj338:
...some seating dies have fixed shaped plugs....QUOTE]

What do you mean by this..? Can you change a plug for different bullet shapes..?
Thanks!

Anders, the problem is likely not the die but the bullets. Woods is right. Here is how to test. Pick ten bullets out of your box. Holding one in your fingers put the point into the muzzle of your barrel and twist lightly as straight on as you can. Line them up on a flat surface and you will see a variation in the marks made by the muzzle. The muzzle acts as a gauge on the curve (ogive) of the bullet point, just like the seating die stem, and the test shows that not all bullets are marked the same. They are made in different machines with different forming dies all spitting them out into the same 55 gallon barrel. Some bullets are made very well, some not so well. So they vary and overall bullet length varies the most, ogive and cannelure less so. The meplat is the tip of the bullet which may or may not be flat. The seating stems are designed to work on the ogive not the meplat. If a chamber had no tapered throat, it would mark a bullet point at the same place you marked one in the muzzle test, except little dots from the rifling, rather than a circular mark from twisting. Hope this helps.

Anders,

Your last question: The bullet should contact the seating plug somewhere along the bullet ogive. The bullet tip should not be contacting the inside top of the seater plug first. If the bullet tip makes initial contact then it will not be seated the same every time.

Yes, there are different bullet seating plugs available for some calibers. You can even ask a die manufacturer to custom make one for you. Also as long as the die stem will fit the seating die and the plug is the same caliber as the die you can pretty much mix & match as you want using pistol and rifle seating plugs.

I'd analyse the bullets you are using first with the seating plug. Bullets are easier to change than the seating plug although you must be pretty much out of spec to have this issue.

Then I'd determine:
1. If your cases really are pretty close to being the same length (within tolerance),
2. Ensure the shellholder and where it fits into the press ram is clean and free of grit, crap, gunk, rust, powder and Trolls.
3. Check the ram pin/press connection to make sure you're getting the same stroke every time with the reloading press,
4. The seater die has been inspected, cleaned functions properly,
5. Then pretty much the only cause can be that you're using a bullet that is out of sync (shape) with the seater plug and perhaps another seater plug WILL not be the cure.

I think you should not concern yourself with this relaoding phenomina/glitch at all - after oogling your Website with the really great photos -you need to personally invite me to Norway as a very experienced reloader to fix all your reloading Trolls & Gremlins - I'll even BRING all the seater plugs, case measuring and length control tools with me as a present to you! Make sure this occurrs when we can do a ski tour.....with a rifle.....and watch the same sunset as in your pictures.....

Keep on plugging (no pun inteneded) away and let us know how your reload length issue develops.

Cheers,

Gerry

I have this problem very often w/ some loads but, I just do as he said and adjust the die every time to get the same over all length and accuracy seems to be good using that method.

Now, I'm talking bullets that are relatively the same length (ie NBTs), not lead tips.

On the other hand when using bullets w/ canelures, I've noticed the variance as well. Now, that's w/ trimed and sized brass that is the same length . I think it is the bullets for the most part causing the problem but, it's in the die too. Anyone that has worked closely w/ metal would tell you that it is dang near imposible to make a cone made of steel push a bullet made of copper to the same Exact spot every time. we are talking tiny tiny differences but, If your like me, I'm kind of anal about getting my carts them same every time. Heck, I even line my rifle loads up on a smooth surface and eyball them to pick out the ones that look like they are a different length.

I would not imagine it would make much difference if the bullets were seated a couple of thou. different from load to load.

Good Luck!

Reloader

Anders:
I too have had the same problem in the past
but I think it is mostly due to variations in bullet lengths. A way to get around this or minimize the variation in OAL is to measure the
length of the bullets from base to tip and you will find that they will group together. I usually count about 50 bullets and measure them
and they will fall into a +/-0.001" range. For example 27 measured 0.930-0.931" and 17 measured
0.933-0.935" and 6 measured 0.932". I take the largest group of 27 and set the seater dies and don't have to change the stem for any of those 27 loads. If you are still getting a variance,
then try cleaning the plug or changing it out.
Also I have found that Nosler BT vary less than Hornady sst, etc. Hollow points vary less
than soft tips but none of this seems to make
much difference in accuracy. I just try to keep
OAL's at +/-0.003 and that keeps bullets touching at 100 yards if I do my part.
Try this and see if your OAL' come out a lot
closer! Mine did!

I never knew bullets could vary that much, but I understand now that "my problem" relates to this and not case lenght like I thought. A while ago I weighed a good bunch of Nosler bullets, and they had the exact same weight (Note: my scale might not pick up the really small differences but..). But lenght can still vary I guess.
I will do some testing like suggested by N.S. Sherlock and Gerry. And for later make a system with measuring bullets and picking out groups of equal lenghts. At least for hunting that requires top-notch accurazy, BLR7. It will probably not have a huge effect, but small differences can count. At least in my own head (I`m a perfectionist from time to time...).
I must say that posting this topic really sorted things out for me. Great answers from experienced reloaders! Thanks..

Ps! Gerry: get on a plane to Scandinavia! Good hunting up here and great nature/scenery.. Thank you for checking out my website!

Anders,

Thanks for the great responses to us all.....I'm glad we could make some helpful suggestions!

Do you use the Stoney Point Tool for calculating O.A.L.? Let me know? Plus what calibers you reload?

Norway..... .....I lived in Oslo for 4 years as a teenager (a looooong time ago.....) and have experienced your fantastic country, good friends, summer houses, fishing, glaciers, fjiords, midsummer's eve, bandy, hockey, ice skating, ski-jumping, x-country, soccer, elk, camping, the list goes on & on.....plus I was a Special Forces Officer who had several training opportunities to northern Norway - some folks thought it was work but I found the visits to be exciting adventures! These are all stories for another time.....you pictures really are outstanding and brought back wonderful memories.....

Cheers,

Gerry

By chance, are you loading a very compressed load? I had this trouble once with a load of 4831 in a 30-06 where, even after pouring the powder through a drop tube, it came within 1/8 of an inch of the case mouth. I had used my regular expanding rod and the bullet was not held tight enough to keep it from working out.
A tighter expanding rod was the answer.

The length of the case or trimming has nothing to do with OAL, it remains constant to the set of the die....

Your problem is the actual length of the bullets, particulary the spitzers with lead exposed....

The upside is two to 5 or 6 thousands makes no difference at all....

These thousands measurements in gunsmithing or reloading mean very little, you can only come so close, never exact...

Ray, if you think that five or six thou. does not make a difference, try loading a few groups worth .005 longer then another bunch. I admit that in some cases it MAY not make a difference, in others it can and does make one hell of a difference. Also you can chamber a barrel that is a couple of thou. off when set up in the lathe and see what your chamber looks like when its done. In a factory gun the reloading comment holds a bit of water, as far as five or six thou. not making a difference in gunsmithing, that statement is off the wall.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerry:
Do you use the Stoney Point Tool for calculating O.A.L.? Let me know? Plus what calibers you reload?

I haven`t used this tool. Only a normal, cheap measuring tool. But I think it`s accurate enough though..
I only reload 6,5x55, 6,5x57R and .30-06 at the moment. Do you reload a lot of different cartridges? What kind of dies do you use..?

Norway sure is great. I`m sorry but we are known to be very patriotic...

quote:

Originally posted by jlongo:
By chance, are you loading a very compressed load?

"Normal" loads only.. But your problem was that the powder did take some of the bullets inteded space, right.. So that you couldn`t seat it deep enough, or..?

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Your problem is the actual length of the bullets, particulary the spitzers with lead exposed....

If I remember right it`s exactly such bullets, like Nosler Part etc, that has given most of theese problems.. It must be pretty difficult to make such bullets with perfection..

BTW: I will be gone for the weekend, so if I`m not posting answers, that`s the reason..

I've noted the same issue myself - even w/ Sierra MK's. I'm pretty sure that it a bullet issue, not a problem w/ the seating die.

It may be possible that this nifty tool is the answer to the problem:

Tubbs Tool

Yeah I read and have talked to alot of people who chamber a round against the rifling and start there. I might try it on the next shooting I do.

Why even reload if it doesn't matter?

On some rifles a few thousands neans the difference between hitting a bull in the butt or a fly in the eye. Maybe not quite that much difference but it does make a substanical difference with some calibers.

As far as the original question goes, if a dood quality seater is used and the seating stem is locked down well there should be VERY little worry about getting all the ctgs. you load the same length where it counts, on the ogive. Finding the proper length for your particular gun is another question, and may take a bit longer. Bob

I don't have a lot of quality bullet seating measuring equipment but found a way the bullet length worked for me. I chambered a round against the rifling and measured the over all length. Then I kept seating it abit deeper until it was at the longest length it could be and work well in the mag. I wrote down the distance from the rifling.(0.85) My die is set there so it seats the bullet the same each time. Shot 1/2 groups with the bullet 0.85 so is ok. Not much else I