I have experimented with a 193 grain S&B SP bullet and reduced loads for the 9.3x74 R. The performance especially on roe deer is spectacular, kills them very well and destroys little to no meat.

However, neither with N110 nor with Blue Dot coudl I achieve groups smaller than about 65 mm at 100 meters. Heavier bullets like Norma's Vulcan or Nosler's BT basically shoot into one single hole. I also notices that the spread in velocities was relatively large.

I have now ordered IMR's SR4759 which is much bulkier ans thus, theoretically, should give a more uniform combustion.

There are no QuickLoad data available for this powder. However, I have seen indications that it is slightly slower than N110.

Can someone confirm this? Has someone ever experimented with reduced loads for the 9.3x74 R?

In Hodgdons manual#27,In buring rates from Fastest to Slowest from 1to 99 different powders this is what i found for you. Blue Dot rated at #33 as to N110 is rated at #38, so Blue dot is faster. It doesn,t have SR4759 in these tables. You might want to go to www.gunboard.com and ask around there.

Dirk,

I have worked also with SR 4759, which does better than Blue Dot when the cases start getting magnum sized..

If you can email the capacity of Blue Dot for the cases you speak of... filled to the brim...then I should be able to at least give you some references

Looking up some load data for that cartridge in Nosler's # 5 manual here... shows it to be about the same case capacity as the 9.3 x 62 Mauser, which is close to our 35 Whelan or the 350 Rem Mag...

for a 200 grain bullet, IMRs old paper manual here lists a Max charge of 39 grains of SR 4759 with a 200 grain bullet for an MV of 2405 and a pressure of 53000 CUP....

for the 35 Whelan, with a 200 grain bullet it lists a max charge of 34.5 grains of SR 4759, with an MV of 2265 fps, with a chamber pressure of 51,400 CUP....

For a 338 Win Mag, which I know you have one of...with a 200 grain bullet, the max charge of SR 4759 is 39.5 grains and has a chamber pressure of 54000 CUP... with an MV of 2335 fps...

hopefully those reference points will give you enough info to be able to work up something in that old Dutch cartridge.. and keep you out of trouble..

4759 is also a pretty forgiving powder, like Blue Dot, even moreso...it will not give you a severe pressure spike.. it will long let you know when working up, when you are getting near max pressures...before it pops a primer..

I always use regular large rifle primers with it, regardless of case size...

I use 4759 a lot in my 444 Marlin and also, in my 8 x 57 Mausers... On the Mauser, I go with a max load of 35 grains of it, with a 170 grain Speer or 175 grain Sierra...

Hoffen daß Hilfen du heraus mein Freund!

Beifall,
seafire

4759 is similar to 4227 in burning rate and there is a lot of 4227 data around.

With that said the Speer Manuals #12 & #13 lists 4759 for the 9.3X74R with a 270 grain Speer bullet

This is listed as a reduced load so I doubt that the pressure is very high.

Max is 25 grains at 1537 FPS

Start is 21 grains at 1252 FPS

The rifle tested was a Valmet 412 over/under.

If you are not familiar with the Speer manual, it lists at least one reduced load of 4759, 4198, 4227 or Re7 in a majority of the rifle rounds.

I have used Speer's 4759 data for the 375 H&H with the 235 grain Speer bullet. I found it shot about the same as your groups and a little smaller with iron sights. The pressure was very mild but enough to seal off the case mouth.

Hello John,

thanks a lot for your detailled response. It seems that 4759 is a little bit slower than Blue Dot, you mention the maximum of 39.5 grains for the .338 WM, there I load 36 grains Blue Dot and feel, that the pressure is already quite high, at least during a very short spike. Also my Quickload calculations show that 36 grains are relatively close to the safe limit. If you recommend 39.5 grain SR4759 under the same conditions it indicates that we could increase by up to 10% in comparison to Blue Dot, at least for the .338 case and similar.

The 9.3x74 R case does have similar capacity, it is however much slimmer which might have an influence on interieur ballistics. Still, your statement that SR4759 is more apt for large cases than Blue Dot makes me hope that maybe I can improve results. If not, the mentioned 193 grain FP bullet which was designed for the 9,3x72 R is just not good for that bigger caliber (throat problem, maybe?). A Norma 232 grain Vulcan by the way shoots very well, even when reduced.

The N110 and Blue Dot loads I tried for the 9.3x74 R are safe so I guess that carefully approaching with SR 4759 a plus 5% (over N110) to 10% (over Blue Dot) over those loads should be still safe. Also, the rifle I use is a Blaser B95 which is said to be a little bit more robust than the typical and usually old break-top action.

Ireload,

I did see the recommendations from the Speer manual but do feel that their indications for the 9.3x74 R are very low. With both Blue Dot as well as N110 (as I learned faster powders than SR4759) I safely reach about 2100 fps. Thus, a higher than their indicated load of 25 grains which give only 1537 fps should be possible. 2000 fps are required when using this load for hunting purposes.

Dirk,

I would recommend starting to work up at about the 35 grain range of SR 4759... even 30 grains if you are looking for a slower velocity...

I am not familar with the 193 grain RWS bullet you mention, so I don't know how it performs at lower velocity or higher velocity...

The Speer 170 grain SMP, that I use in the 8 x 57s I shoot, work great with a charge of 35 grains of SR 4759.. but the bullet actually penetrates thru wood at least, a lot better with charges of 25 and 30 grains... Even at 15 grains, it has proven more than enough for the local blacktail deer...and the recoil isn't much... at least seen thru recommendations I have given to a few locals, for older guys in their 70s or younger kids...

If it were Seafire, I'd try loads of 25, 30 and 35 grains and see what I got.. and then try down to 20 and 15 grains and see what those gave me... if the range isn't that great, and the RWS bullet opens up ( as you said it was a FN) 20 to 25 grains may be all that you need...

what kinda game are you going to use it on???

the rifle sounds pretty cool also! if you have any pics of it, drop me an email.. would love to see it!!

beifall,
seafire

quote:

Originally posted by DUK:

I did see the recommendations from the Speer manual but do feel that their indications for the 9.3x74 R are very low. With both Blue Dot as well as N110 (as I learned faster powders than SR4759) I safely reach about 2100 fps. Thus, a higher than their indicated load of 25 grains which give only 1537 fps should be possible. 2000 fps are required when using this load for hunting purposes.

I agree with your comments about pressure. Considering you are using a much lighter bullet I am sure the powder charge could be increased significantly. The Speer data gives a starting place. You can compare pressure ring expansion to factory ammunition if you fire the work up rounds in new brass.

Hi Seafire,

the rifle I use is a Blaser over&under combination rifle I purchased many years ago in 12 gauge/30/06. About one year ago I got another set of barrels in 12/9.3x74R and started experimenting with the cheap jacketed 193 grain FP bullet from Sellier&Belliot, a Chec manufacturer.

My idea was to simulate the 110 year old 9.3x72 mm R cartrigde, originally loaded with BP and for many decades famous as the "Förster Patrone" in their Sauer drillings. Even though the nominal kinetic energy is quite low, it is sad to kill also major animals (stag and big boars) quite well with very little meat destruction.

I succeeded in getting similar performance data (670 m/s or 2050 fps) from the newer and bigger 9.3x74 R case and have shot already several roe deer, one wild boar and one whitetailed deer so far with this load. About the performance I am really amazed, my customers for the game meat love it, I get complete penetration and the animals don't travel far when hit leaving a big blood trail. The boar dropped on the spot (45 kgs. gutted), the whitetail spike went 20 meters with a chamber shot. A whitetail calf I shot into the very same spot the next day with a full-power 250 grain Ballistic Tip went about 80 meters into a thicket... This is of course not representative at all but gives some indication about what big, slow bullets can do.

The only inconvenience so far is the not so good precision, however when hunting in the woods shooting 100 meters is already the rare exeption, most game we shoot there at 50 to 60 meters. Still, I'd like to optimize a little bit. The SR4759 I picked up yesterday might do the trick.

Dirk,

nice looking rifle, and very 'continental' as they use to say when I lived in England.....

I am really anxious to see how your accuracy will work out.. keep me posted if it isn't an imposition...

Gut vom Glück mit ihm!!!
Beifall
seafire

Loadtech shows from 32.5 to 37.9 with velocities from 2000 to 2245 using the 193gr and 4759.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
Loadtech shows from 32.5 to 37.9 with velocities from 2000 to 2245 using the 193gr and 4759.

Thanks a lot, this is exactly the range I was looking for.

This 193 grain bullet is apparently not designed for velocities over 2200 fps or so and migth blow apart. Our roe deer season starts again May., 1st. By then, I will have range results. A new lease is waiting for me in the lack Forest with lots of roe and red deer sign I found during my first visit.

Duk; this is from a burn rate chart I have-
#94- Blue Dot
#102- N110
#114- SR 4759