First time reloader, and I have some questions about how to choose the correct bushing sizes for use in a Redding Type S FL die for my .25-06 hunting rifle.

First, I have new Winchester brass and will be using Speer 120g Grand Slam bullets, and as part of the initial brass prep, I will be turning the necks for consistency, and will be aiming for a .015 thickness, as recommended in Doug Arnold's excellent book on achieving accuracy.

Based on this, in order to know what size bushing to order, do I just add the total neck thickness (.030) to the caliber diameter (.257) for a total of .287, and then subtract the amount of neck tension that I need, such as .001, .002, .003, etc., from the .287 total? If doing it this way is not correct, or maybe not accurate enough, then how should I do it?

Also, is it recommended to buy more than one size of bushing?
Is there any advantage to buying the Titanium Nitride bushings versus the steel bushings?

Finally, and you probably knew this was coming, which bushing size or sizes would you recommend that I buy?

Seat a bullet in your prepped brass mate, measure the loaded diameter of the neck, then subtract 0.001". This is the size bushing you will need. Use 0.002" if you need/want a bit more neck tension in a magazine rifle.

Not really a lot of point of doing all this unless your rifle is chambered for the tight neck dimensions rather than a standard (near enough) SAAMI 'size' chamber.

quote:

Originally posted by HiWall:
Seat a bullet in your prepped brass mate, measure the loaded diameter of the neck, then subtract 0.001". This is the size bushing you will need. Use 0.002" if you need/want a bit more neck tension in a magazine rifle.

Correct. The best way of measureing (turned) neck wall diameter is to measure the loaded round. It is a lot more consistent than attempting to measure wall diameter on its own.

I tend to go with more neck tension, though. Brass varies enough (in particular after it has been fired a few times) that I have found myself getting varying neck tension if I tried to go as low as .001". You may get away with that as you intend to prep your brass for greater consistency, remember to anneal on a regular basis, though. I find myself using tensions of .004" for big game hunting calibers, and perhaps about .003" for target and varmint rounds (using unturned brass).

Bushing size can sometimes be deceiving. I have experienced sized neck diameters, which even taking brass spring-back into consideration, can't be explained by the nominal bushing size. Besides, you won't know in advance what tension your gun will like, or you may need a bit more tension as your brass work hardens. One of the great advantages of the bushing dies is that they allow you this flexibility. So don't expect to buy just one single bushing. Measure your loaded outside neck diameter as HiWall described, and then get bushings for, say, .002-.004" tension (or whatever range you believe will bring you success).

The additional cost of buying several bushings can be somewhat offset by buying the cheaper bushings. Redding recommnds lubing the case for minimal runout, and then the advantage of the coated bushings disappear.

The drawback of bushing dies is that they can create quite a bit of runout. If you are worried about that, consider getting a Forster FL sizer and have Forster modify the die to size to a specific outside neck diameter (established like above). Not as flexible as the bushing die, but will normally produce next to zero runout.

In either die, make sure you don't size with an expander. The expander is another common cause of runout.

You can neck turn to a specific wall diameter if you want, but doing so may actually be a disadvantage if you load for a (normally oversized) factory chamber. You'll end up over-working your brass. Turning can still work, but if you insist on turning for a factory chamber (assuming this is what you have), it is probably better to make a minimal turn just to make sure you have consistent neck walls - as opposed to reducing neck walls to a particular diameter. Doing so will probably mean turning .001" - .002" (about 70% of neck surface turned.) That *might* bring you some advantage, but try shooting unturned brass as well, maybe that will shoot just as well.

- mike

You'll have to allow for about .001 springback with new brass too.

Don

I would not recommend neck turning for anything but a tight chamber. Factory rifles do not require neck turning at all.

quote:

The drawback of bushing dies is that they can create quite a bit of runout.

Mike, I'm just curious what the mechanism is for runout while using bushings. I thought that they self centered over the case mouth at the initiation of sizing. Would that not reduce the risk of runout?

In terms of neck turning to the OP, I have noticed that in some of my rifles, it made a remarkable difference, where others were unremarkable.

I have continued to turn the necks in my 300 RUM and 7mm Rem mag. Both wear Shilen barrels installed by Shilen. These 2 rifles showed the most difference in group sizes with turned necks. I do not know if it is a function of Shilen, the caliber, or both.

If you are using a factory cut chamber turning the cartridge necks isn't going to do you a whole lot of good.

To get the most out of a bushing type die you need to have loaded ammunition that fits the chamber of your rifle closely.

In my 6.5x284 I measured the loaded Lapua brass at .2935 so I had the body cut to SAAMI minimum diameter and my chamber neck cut to .296 to give me just enough room to release the bullet safely.

I use a .292 bushing dies which after the spring back gives me case neck diameter of .294 and results in a .002" of neck tension.

Bushing dies are great for custom building your ammunition to fit but in the typical factory chamber your loaded cartridge is going to be laying in the bottom of the chamber and the bullet itself is going to be sitting .003-.004 below the centerline of the bore.

It's nice but it's kind of like putting an afterburner on a turtle.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:
...I'm just curious what the mechanism is for runout while using bushings. I thought that they self centered over the case mouth at the initiation of sizing. Would that not reduce the risk of runout?

Doc, I don't have an answer to that. It is something I observe and see referenced in a lot of places on the Web. My guess is that it has to do with bushing not lining up properly, but it is only conjecture on my part.

I'm not gunning for bushing dies in general. I have had fairly good results with them, in particular if I used the Redding Competition Neck Sizing dies. The sleeve supporting the full case body seems to produce good results with the bushing. I did not have a lot luck with my one Redding Type-S die. Could it be too little support for the case body?? I don't know.

I have heard of other people actually fixing the bushing in the dies to reduce runout, I have never tried this. One thing is for sure, the bushings make the dies very versatile.

For low runout, nothing beats a fixed FL die with a neck honed to give you a specific outside neck diameter, in my experience. Used without an expander, these dies produce literally zero runout.

- mike

quote:

Originally posted by mho:
For low runout, nothing beats a fixed FL die with a neck honed to give you a specific outside neck diameter, in my experience. Used without an expander, these dies produce literally zero runout.

- mike

I agree. I haven't used the expander in a few years. I used the regular Redding FL sizer dies, with whatever spec they came from the factory. I've noticed the 270 die reduces neck size quite a bit. I've turned these brass on my concentricity gauge and get from zero to .001 usually.

But b/c the necks are so tight, I am shaving copper when I seat the bullets, despite chamfering and applying graphite suspension inside the necks. After seating, I take a firm toothbrush and clean off the copper shavings. I was worried about accuracy. No effect. I couldn't be happier with my results.

Doc, you are right about an unmodified FL sizing die used without an expander will reduce neck diameter a LOT. But as you have noticed, runout is almost non-existant.

If you want to fix the issue of too much sizing, Forster will modify their FL dies for $10 plus shipping to whatever internal neck diameter you specify. Good setup.

- mike

I would go for extra neck tension in a magazine rifle loading heavy bullets. Get three a .002 , .003 & .004
Steel bushings are ok but should be lubricated with a graphite / moly mix.
Coated bushings are said to not require it but I still dry lube them to save wear on the necks.

Neck Turning for a Standard Chamber

I have read many times the statement that neck turning is a waste of time for standard factory chambers.
Well it depends on how you do it .
First you must study the article on neck turning and learn how to turn an accurate case neck.
When you have mastered that you can apply the sizing system outlined below.
Only skim the necks to a 80% cleanup.
There is no denying that turning a case neck for a factory chamber will increase the clearance between the case neck and the wall of the chamber, but you can retrieve this clearance for a section of the neck to a tighter fit than before turning .
With partial neck sizing and body die sizing .
The idea is that you leave a portion of the neck , about one third of the length from the shoulder , unsized at all times.
To achieve this a bushing type neck sizing die or a Lee Collet neck sizing die is used to size the neck only . To shorten the length of sizing in a Lee collet die place a machined washer of correct thickness over the case and between the collet skirt and the shell holder .
This section of neck never gets sized that is why it must be kept short .
If it is too long it can make chambering difficult and there will not be enough sized section to hold the projectile concentric and secure especially in short neck designs like 243 W .
A body die is used to size the remainder of the case when necessary and it doesn’t touch any of the neck .
This way you gain some of the benefits of neck turning , without the disadvantage of excessive neck clearance in the chamber.
This is a technique for a bolt action rifle that has already shown to be accurate and you want to improve it .
It is definitely a waste of time employing this idea in a rifle that doesn’t shoot well enough to see any small improvement in the groups.
Other methods such as pillar bedding , hand load development , quality projectiles etc, would be more likely to improve the bad shooting rifle .
So work on everything else and when you run out of things to improve , it may be the icing on the cake .
There is no one system of anything that suits every rifle , the secret to performance is experimentation.
Some rifles brake all the rules such as shooting better with Full length sized cases than Fire formed cases.
Things like this can usually be traced back to some inaccuracy in the original manufacture e.g. crooked chambering job.
It's your job to figure out what works and what don't.
This article is designed to help you think about ideas you may not have come across before.
I have been using this system in some of my rifles for many years and find it improves accuracy .
Written by John Valentine. ( Happy Jack ) 25 / 10 / 07. Copyright.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I would not recommend neck turning for anything but a tight chamber. Factory rifles do not require neck turning at all.

+1

If the factory chambering has a large neck, your case necks will expand far too much for good case life. I have that situaltion now with a 22-250 rifle I have. I turned the case necks, and after firing the necks expanded about .006. As soon as I discovered my mistake, I decided that when these case necks split, I'll buy new cases and leave the necks as it.
For rifles I have that do have tight necks, I use Wilson bushing dies, or custom made dies similar to Wilson's. They manage concentricity and runout as well as can be expected.

Don

You were just not doing it correctly.
I have been neck turning for a standard Sako 22-250 chamber for 20 years. On my second barrel now. If you do it the way I have stated it will work well . However wether it improves accuracy or not in your rifle only trying it will tell.
There are so many other factors that affect accuracy.

Redding's response on bushings and runout, cut and pasted from email:

Bushing dies were introduced to reduce runout. They do this by sizing cases necks less. This applies to cases with neck wall thickness from the midpoint to the thick end of the tolerance. Cases with thin necks will necessarily be sized the same. A regular die may work better for cases with thin necks. Thick case necks are desirable, that’s why LAPUA cases are rated so highly.

I appreciate the responses. As my fall-back position in case of possible bushing problems, I also bought a Lee collet neck die to try also. My Remington Model 700 Classic .25-06 was fully accurized by Arnold Arms several years back when they were just starting in business, including having the barrel cryo'ed. It will routinely shoot sub 3/4" groups at 100yds with several types of factory ammo, and when Speer Nitrex 120g Grand Slam ammo was on the market, I could sometimes get sub 1/2" groups, with a best of .263, and usually they ranged from a .4 to .6 spread. But that ammo has not been manufactured in a long time. Obviously, my gun is capable of very good groups, and I now want to try hand-loading to see how good I can get it, so I am willing to try all of the little extra steps to maximize its' accuracy potential. As for turning the necks, really all I am trying to accomplish is to have even neck thickness all around the neck, without going thinner than the thinnest part, so that bullet release is not adversely affected by uneven neck thickness. One less variable to worry about, and Arnold recommends doing it, even for standard hunting rifles. Once I finally receive all of my gear and get started, I'll post my results. I'll also try some randomly selected cases from the same batch and won't turn (even out) the necks, just to see if I can tell a difference. Besides, I need something to keep me busy.

quote:

Originally posted by duvallite:
... I also bought a Lee collet neck die to try also.

...As for turning the necks, really all I am trying to accomplish is to have even neck thickness all around the neck, without going thinner than the thinnest part

The Collet dies have their own issues, but in general they produce straight ammo for very little cost. Not a bad choice.

As you'll see from several of the replies above, if you have your mind set on turning, a "skim turn" is what was recommended - just as you seem to plan. This is not a bad way to go, if you don't mind the extra effort.

It is always hard to say in advance, exactly what steps will improve accuracy. In the end it is often the sum of many small improvements.There is absolutely nothing wrong with exploring new techniques. At worst you gain valuable experience, which might come in handy for later projects...

- mike