OK---a little new to this revolver stuff and wish I had just got another contender barrel.

Got a Taurus model 66 (medium frame) in 357 magnum with 6" barrel.

Am trying to work up potent loads for possible deer hunting within 30 yards.
Working with AA#9 and 158 hornady hp bullets.
Worked up to 14.0 grains. Quickload says this is a hot load with almost 44k pressure and should be doing 1400+fps. Hornady manual says this is one notch below max. and should do about 1400 fps in a 8" barrel.
I thought I did a great job of crimping yet velocity varied from 1090fps to 1210fps...GOOD ACCURACY THOUGH. But, I have some sticky extraction. Seems like the cylinders are rough as the brass has circuler abrasions showing from expanding against the holes.
Nothing strange looking about the primers and I doubt there is any primer pocket expansion.

So.....does this sound like a max load?
Why is it so slow compared to manuals & Qc?
Why so much velocity variation?? (all loads were individually weighed).
I guess the bottom line is this thing kicks pretty hard with this load....I guess I'll be happy to stop here but don't want to do damage over the years with this load if it is indeed hot.
ADVICE PLEASE.....THANKS.

THE CYLENDER HAS 6 CHAMBERS COMPARED TO A RIFLE WITH ONLY ONE.
sticky extraction is an indication of a max or overload
the variation in velocity could be to many things to consider at this time .I would use a diffrent powder for my mag loads. ww231 or ww296 maybe 2400 i have used some of the AA pwders and found inconsistencies with pistol ammo.
I have a S/W mod 66 stainless 357 that is a dream to shoot

You have 2" less barrel lenght and there are gaps between the cyinder and barrel that likely don`t exist in the test bed. The variation in velocity can be from different chamber volumes, and variation in the gap between the barrel and chambers.

run some good quality, hot factory rounds through it and see if you get sticky extraction. if you do, send it back to taurus ASAP. if this is a new purchase, complain long and loud and get them to send you a call tag. I hate their customer service, so good luck with it.

your velocity should be a bit higher. IIRC I was getting what you got with 296 out of my 4" 686.

Go to 296 powder and try again. Some powders just work better than others for revolvers. Use a heavy crimp as well and make sure the crimp is consistent.

It's not a max load. Accurates manual list 13.5gr with a MV of 1502fps. for min. and 15gr as max with a MV of 1633fps with an 8" barrel.

I've been loading 14gr. of #9 with a 158gr slug since 1986 for my Desert Eagle. The variance you're seeing is probably due to your crimp. It does require a heavy crimp to get consistant velocities. And they are lower because of your barrel length and cylinder gap. I have the same problem when I shoot them in my revolvers. My 6" Desert Eagle is pushing 1525fps with 14gr.

There are better powders suited for a revolver.

kraky; velocity seems a little low and extreme spreads indicate poor ignition, I found this powder needs a firm crimp and a mag primer to work reliably for me. I got a couple squib loads with this powder and a std primer in below zero weather but with cast bullets, and once I ran out of #9 I didn't buy anymore, my heavy loads are H110, 2400 and LilGun for now and all with 158 and 168 cast bullets. I get best accuracy with a max load of H110, so far anyway.Sticky extraction is usually a sign of high pressure, but the advice of firing a few factory loads is sound advice IMHO
M65 Taurus 4 " SS
158 FMJ, 13.0 grs AA#9, cci 550 primer, fc case, 1162fps 43 extreme spread @ 70f

Whats my 357 MAG revolver telling me???

Other guys have already answered this question.

Now ask, "what's my chronograph telling me?" And this applies to handguns and rifles as well. Plot your bullet speed versus your powder charge. As you worked up the load to 14 grains, did each incremental charge weight give the same increase in speed? Was it erratic? Did 14 grains give less speed than 13.5 grains? It happens.

WW 296 is my go to powder for both the 357 and 44 mags. You don't work up much with 296 as WW says not to reduce their recommendations. It is meant to be loaded hot only. It's ball powder and meters well. I gave up on AA #9 a long time ago. There's better powder for the S&W mags.

Don, If it were me starting out loading for a revolver Id try some H4227,(16grs. max) might give you the best chance for accuracy and should give ya over 1400fps from your taurus. Might wanna check your cylinder gap, if youre over .005" alot of pressure is getting out the sides which would cause your velocity woes, plus the different sized cylinders themselves. And get yourself a Redding Profile crimp, they totally rock for putting the best crimp on my Redhawk loads. Jay

quote:

a little new to this revolver stuff and wish I had just got another contender barrel.

What is your revolver telling you? You already knew the answer. LOL

I'd try some 2400 powder.

Nashcat

Someone nailed this question:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=312786

Thanks guys...I've worked with some 296 and not got the accuracy I was hoping for. I will reduce and keep working with the #9 and 296. One last question: I noticed in one of the posts that people are saying NOT TO USE MAG PRIMERS....is this true as that's what I've been using. Thanks for the help. PS...I've checked the cyl gap and it is right around .oo5 on this gun.. Is it normal to have a real rough finish inside the cylenders to hold the shell on expansion??

Mag primers are thicker and can take more pressure before piercing, but that is way higher than the 357 mag can go before the cases stick.

The magnum primer acts like 1.1 gr more powder in pressure, but acts like allot less in velocity.

The magnum primer, if needed would be with a slow ball powder like LIL'GUN, 296/H110, or AA#9/Enforcer/H108/WC820.
But it is not needed.
What is needed is a good roll crimp into the canalure.

So...does mag pistol primers jack the pressure of the load without a velocity gain?? (doesn't seem likely) I do have some small rifle primers sitting here. Would it be worth while to try them.....or am I getting goofy?

quote:

Originally posted by kraky:
So...does mag pistol primers jack the pressure of the load without a velocity gain?? (doesn't seem likely) I do have some small rifle primers sitting here. Would it be worth while to try them.....or am I getting goofy?

Unless your problem is pierced primers or powder not igniting, it does not pay to go to a magnum or rifle primer.

The mag primer can raise pressure less than it raises velocity becuase it is faster than the powder. The peak pressure is instantaneous, while the velocity is the integral of pressure.

Mag primers reduce the amount of powder needed to make the primer fall out of the brass by about 1.1 gr. The mag primer will not raise the velocity as much as 1.1 gr of powder.

I'm not sure where that blanket statement about the 1.1 grains pressure increase from a magnum primer came from - does that apply to a .32 Magnum, a .357 Mag, a .44 Mag or a .30-06? It is well known that different brands of magnum primers will give different pressures and velocities with the same load - which primer is the above in reference to? IME mag primers should be used only when the published load data indicates, or....

One item that no one seems to realize is that a shooting range in Wisconsin today (where the OP lives) is a lot colder than the 72F room that was used for most load data development. A difference of 40 degrees will make a big difference in velocities it two ways. First, the chemical reastion that occurs when the powder burns is slowed slightly at low temperaturs. Next - and perhaps most important - ignition may be compromised. The use of a standard primer in 85F weather may be fine, but cool it down 50+ degrees and a magnum primer may be required for better ignition (with less velocity variation) and higher velocities. 27 years shooting in Alaska demonstrated these effects very clearly to me. We shot IHMSA competition 12 months a year and in December and January if you were not shooting mag primers your accuracy and velocity went to heck....as chronograph testing confirmed to us.

Pressure signs based on sticky extraction can be inaccurate if the chamber is overly rough. It is difficult to diagnose the issues from far away, but if it were me I'd do two things: make certain that my sizing die was reducing my brass small enough and my expander plug was not too large - this to insure a tight grip on the bullet; and I'd switch to mag primers or to a different brand of mag primers. H110/W296 is difficult enough to ignite well at warm temperatures without a tight grip on the bullet, and it is worse when it turns cold. IME AA-9 is better in this regard, but switching to an extruded powder may help. IMR4227 would be a good choice (there is no H4227 anymore).


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17.1 grains of W-W 296 and Hornady's 158 grain JHP produce an honest 1370 f/s in my 6" 686.

quote:

Originally posted by TX Nimrod:

Pressure signs based on sticky extraction can be inaccurate if the chamber is overly rough.


.

That post reminds me of the joke; "Why can't Baptists make love standing up? Because it looks too much like they are dancing."

What does it all mean?
Dancing might lead to fornication
The work up limit in 357 mag is the cases get sticky. That happens will less powder in thin wall cylinders, becuase the steel stretches easier than with thick walls. The actual pressure does not matter to the handloader. Feel the sticky, you back off ~6%. This REAL limit varies from revolver to revolver.

quote:

Originally posted by buckshot:
17.1 grains of W-W 296 and Hornady's 158 grain JHP produce an honest 1370 f/s in my 6" 686.

Thanx 4 reminding me, have some of this same load, minus .1grs in my Dads gun cabinet I inherited when he passed, remember getting 4" groups @50yds with opens with his python. That velocity seems about right from what the manual I used said. Jay

thanks for all the input guys. Just ordered a lee turret press and carbide crimp die. (may need the carbide with tiny flicks of nickel coming off during crimping).
I've had great luck with berry's bullets (light plated double struck 158 gr) and 12 grains of AA9 so will use up the AA9 and get some of the above recomended powder. (Fun plinking load but potent enough to keep you in practice with decent recoil.)
I think my gun is "slow". I checked some records and see that 16.5 w296 in my gun with 158 horns is only doing 1175. Maybe a better crimp will get things more consistant. I did have to pull a bullet the other day and notices that my crimp was so good that I had a real rough "serated" finish to the inside of the case mouth....must have transfered from the cannelure to the brass....not sure if you could crimp more than that??

You getting this crimp die, Don? Got one for my 44, works very well, I think, doesnt allow to bullets to creep forward in heavy recoiling revolvers.
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?s...id=185588&t=11082005

Or this?
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?s...id=251707&t=11082005

That Lee die should work very well for ya, talked to a Lee tech about it, should do the same as a Redding profile crimp die.

getting the last one..the carbide die. I also ordered some brass......not nickel plated this time.....seems like i'm seeing some shiney flicks of nickel after crimping and don't really want them going down the barrel too bad.

Also read that brass is going to give more accuracy than nickel, think I read that in some gum mag a while back. Jay