quote:

Originally posted by icemanls2:

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:
Icemanis2, I would STRONGLY recommend that you do NOT use Quickload as your final say in what is safe or unsafe loads.

I would never use a computer program as my only source! It is a source of information for me as well as hornady 3rd edition, Speer 14th edition, Reloaders Digest and a few others combined with the common sense signs of high pressure. The load i entered into quickload comes straight from Speers 14th edition and i wanted to compare as they list 51 grains as MAX and do not denote it as being compressed. I know it is compressed though cause i filled the case and i weigh EVERY charge with RCBS (pact) partner scale and double check it on my beam.

Good, you've got it then. Your first post said that you were relatively new to handloading. Most new handloaders wouldn't have as many manuals are using so I was trying to give what I thought was advice to a less experienced reloader than you appear to be. Even VERY experienced reloaders need to be reminded of things sometimes ........................DJ

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:

quote:

Measure the case head after firing for anything more than nominal expansion, and carefully feel for normal pressure to re-seat the primers in previously fired cases. If the primer pocket starts to lose its tension on the primer within three or four firings, then you should be reducing your charge.

Stonecreek,

I certainly agree that "feeling" the finger pressure during the primer re-seating process is very helpful in gaging PSI. I note you believe that "loosening" prockets within 3 to 4 reloadings is an indication of too much pressure, but I ask why do you say 3 to 4. And, can I get you to dilate a bit on what is significant "loosening?" I have my criteria, which I'd like to share, but after you weigh in on this important subject. Regards, AIU

Stonecreek, I'm wondering if I can get you to address my question. Regards, AIU

Sorry, AIU, I missed your post the first time.

"Three or four" loadings is a very arbitrary and subjective number to regard as "acceptable" before finding loosened primer pockets, and I consider it a minimum. If a primer will stay in place with the same load three to four times in a row, then it is not generating pressure which is potentially dangerous (in that particular rifle.) Most of us would like our brass to last more than a few loadings, so a "sustainable" load would not loosen a primer pocket at all, or at least not until after the brass had become so work-hardened by multiple loadings that it failed with a split neck or some such.

What constitutes "loosening" is also subjective. Certainly an experienced reloader grows accustomed to the feel of a properly snug pocket when seating a primer with at thumb tool. I'm sure that if someone created a tool to measure primer seating pressure in PSI that there would be a reasonable measure that you could use as a benchmark, but I have no idea off the top of my head what that figure would be. Also, primer seating pressure varies with the brand of primer. I find WW unplated primers to seat much more easily than CCI, which in turn seem to seat more easily than Federals.

So, all of this is rather vague and subjective, but when your primer more or less falls into place with the slightest of seating pressure, you know that the chamber pressure of the previous load in that case was unsustainable, which means it is also on the verge of dangerous.

What's your take on it?

Stonecreek, Thanks for the comeback. I agree with your analysis - that is, a "hot" reloaded case should be able to retain a reuseable primer pocket for at least 3 reloadings. Since this may seem "case abuse" to some reloaders, it's not a problem for me, because I only use "hot" reloads like this for big game hunting, and end up shooting these rounds as few as 4 shots per year (i.e., 3 shots to check my sight-in and 1 shot for the buck). Besides, cases are fairly cheap, when one considers all the other expenses of our hobby.

I define a primer pocket as too loose when I can push the primer back out of the case with gentle finger pressure (not to worry they don't ignite). Waiting for the primer to fall out by gravity is way too loose in my opinion, yet such primers are rarely blown, because they obdurate and seal the pocket.

Finally, from my analysis of the literature and discussion with a number of "experts," I believe that early pressure signs on once fired cases begin to occur with frequency around 65,000 PSI - 5,000 less than what Oehler is reported to have stated above. Pockets will "blow" (toasted) with one firing at from 75,000 to 80,000 PSI.

What are your thoughts?

Regards, AIU

My approach to working up a new load.

1st. I like Quick Load. After picking the caliber (e.g., 30-06 AI), barrel length, bullet make/weight, and OAL, I use the option that allows comparison of all powders in the QL data base such that the highest velocity is produced by a given powder that can be fitted into the case at 115% fill and produce a maximum of no more than 65,000 PSI. I’m happy to tap in powder and compress loads.

Almost always, the greatest velocity is the slowest burning powder that will fill to 115% (or close to) and produce 65,000 PSI. For example, in a 30-06 AI loaded with a 180 bullet the powder of choice will be something like Normal MRP or Reloader 25 or some very similar high-energy, slow-burning powder. I believe slower burning powders are safer to work with compared to faster burning powders.

2nd. I start 5 grains below the indicated maximum powder charge and workup to maximum recommended powder charge in 0.5 gr. increments.

3rd. Next, I shoot these loads with a chronograph, noting increasing velocity with increasing powder charge. I look for pressure signs, especially ejector marks and gas leakage around the primer pocket, as indications to stop. Also, I monitor velocity, being careful not to exceed the maximum velocity indicated by QL.

4th. Simultaneously, I’m looking for 1 MOA accuracy, which is usually achieveable with an accurate rifle, even with “hot” loads.

quote:

quote:
CHE and PRE but they've been proven to be unreliable by professional ballisticians and statisticians.[/
I'm not doubting that you actually believe that. However, I've yet to talk to one who has said anything close to that. In fact, the Sierra Tech Line recommends measuring Case Heads to see what the Pressure is doing.

Any idea who these "professional ballisticians and statisticians" happen to be?

From the Hornady #7 pg 74

In some caribers and for some cartridges, pressure barrels were not available. We developed and tested in these situations by employing a factory or custom firearm and by examining the brass case and fired case extracted from the chamber. The brass case will show several indications of increasing pressures. One is case head expansion as measured by a good micrometer and compared to a fired factory loaded cartridge. Other pressure signs of significance were cratered or flatteneed primers, brass flow into ejector slots, case head seperations, as well as difficult case extraction.
We employed the procedures above only when we had no other opions. The vast majority of the data in this book was derived from the use of strain gages.

From The Speer #14 pg pg 58

When you try to use an alternative system like case head expansion, you may go outside parameters of your firearm. Stick with published data.

Don`t know that these guys are "professional ballisticians and statisticians" buy I do give them some weight..

CHE and PRE are tools that warrent watching but, I don`t give them much value as a stand alone sign without other other factors such as cratered primers, or sticky ejection, ect also present that I do a strain.

quote:

Originally posted by jackfish:
Sorry, that was someone at Sinclair International, not Sierra Bullets Tech Line.

Hey everyone, jackfish was actually correct! It's about time.

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:
[QUOTE] originally from Dr. Ken Oehler

Having made many pressure measurements, and having observed the traditional pressure signs on the shots where pressure was actually measured, I have totally lost confidence in using the traditional pressure signs (including measured case and head expansion) as a safe means of working up loads.

I can certainly understand his vested interest in deriding the very best Pressure Detection Method available(CHE & PRE) to anyone who is not going to waste a lot of money on his $$$HIGH$$$, non-calibratable, guessed at dimension, quasi-pressure fiasco. The salesman is coming out in him. I've never seen him mention that ignorance over here.

quote:

Yes, the traditional pressure signs do indicate excessive pressure and they are a certain and definite warning to back off, but many times I've seen the pressure signs appear only after exceeding prudent pressure limits.

Actually I'll agree with that. If a person uses Primer Pocket Expansion alone, they do not know anything until they get home, unless the Primers happen to fall out at the Range. Of course, Velocity doesn't tell them spit about Pressure(reference the totally unbiased Kelbro Test) which can certainly lead them into Pressure Problems. And if you do not use CHE & PRE correctly, you can get incorrect data.

quote:

I regard pressure "measurements" as being uncertain enough; pressure "signs" are really reading the tea leaves.

Obviously he is talking about using the non-calibrated, guessed at dimension quasi-pressure M43 fiasco he used to sell to the unsuspecting, uneducated reloaders. So, I agree that his Haphazard SGS is totally worthless outside of a Lab.

quote:

Here's the whole thread if you want to read it: ...DJ

I appreciate the link, but I'll pass. I believe you posted whatever was said without altering it. I have been to 24hour before, but never found anything of interest nor that I could learn from.
-----

Since you believe in Velocity as a Pressure Indicator, what Velocity spread have you seen between many rifles with the same barrel length, chambered for the same cartridge? How many different ones have you compared?

What would you recommend for Wildcatters to use so they do not Ka-Boom their rifles?

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by jackfish:
Sorry, that was someone at Sinclair International, not Sierra Bullets Tech Line.

Hey everyone, jackfish was actually correct! It's about time.

Please point out where I was wrong. I addressed your mischaracterization of my premise and showed that you are not always right either.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Velocity tells you absolutely nothing at all about Pressure.

It is obvious that there is a relationship between velocity and pressure for a given cartridge, powder and components. That relationship in general is an increase in charge results in an increase in velocity and an increase in pressure. If there was no increase in pressure there would be no increase in velocity with incremental increases in charge. So to say that velocity tells you absolutely nothing at all about pressure is false.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
I find it difficult to imagine less Powder getting more Velocity at a sane Pressure.

For a given cartridge with appropriate loads, powders with faster burning rates may produce more velocity with less powder than powders with relatively slower burning rates.

30-06 150 grain bullet
84. H380 53 grains 2798 fps
92. H4350 56 grains 2792 fps

65. Benchmark 49.5 grains 2944 fps
76. IMR4064 51 grains 2928 fps

30-06 180 grain bullet
87. 760 55.5 grains 2743 fps
101. H4831 60 grains 2710 fps

92. H4350 57.5 grains 2798 fps
101. H4831 60 grains 2710 fps

So you don't have to imagine less powder getting more velocity at a sane pressure because it happens!

Thank You.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:
[QUOTE] originally from Dr. Ken Oehler

Having made many pressure measurements, and having observed the traditional pressure signs on the shots where pressure was actually measured, I have totally lost confidence in using the traditional pressure signs (including measured case and head expansion) as a safe means of working up loads.

I can certainly understand his vested interest in deriding the very best Pressure Detection Method available(CHE & PRE) to anyone who is not going to waste a lot of money on his $$$HIGH$$$, non-calibratable, guessed at dimension, quasi-pressure fiasco. The salesman is coming out in him. I've never seen him mention that ignorance over here.

Hot Core, I hate to insult you so terribly but are you a LIBERAL?

This is just the kind of argument that a Liberal would use against anything that disagreed with thier OWN pet notions i.e. it's wrong because the person who is proving me wrong is only motivated by money. It's BS coming from them and from you.
You neglet to notice that other ballistions that have no financial benefit whatsoever from the new equipment have come to the same conclusion.

I realize that it's going to take a long time for you to overcome your deeply beleived notions about Case Head Expansion and Pressure Ring Expansion. But people who have full access to both know that you're wrong. Maybe someday you'll figure it out too......................DJ

.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Since you believe in Velocity as a Pressure Indicator, what Velocity spread have you seen between many rifles with the same barrel length, chambered for the same cartridge? How many different ones have you compared?

What would you recommend for Wildcatters to use so they do not Ka-Boom their rifles?

Hey DJ, Did you miss these?

Kind of surprised you resorted to bashing me. I thought the discussion was going well, other than the Oehler sales pitch.

Perhaps I asked something you just don't have an answer for. Maybe alf, jackfish and Dr. Oehler can help you.

Meanwhile, I know what works and what the typical spread happens to be.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Since you believe in Velocity as a Pressure Indicator, what Velocity spread have you seen between many rifles with the same barrel length, chambered for the same cartridge? How many different ones have you compared?

What would you recommend for Wildcatters to use so they do not Ka-Boom their rifles?

Hey DJ, Did you miss these?

Kind of surprised you resorted to bashing me. It is kinda a low blow to even ask if someone is a liberal these days. Hopefully you won't take it too much to heart. I would truly miss argueing with you. I think you're a better guy than a liberal, you're just wrong about this issue . I thought the discussion was going well, other than the Oehler sales pitch. It's not just Oehler saying the same thing but several other professional ballisticians.
Perhaps I asked something you just don't have an answer for. Maybe alf, jackfish and Dr. Oehler can help you.

Meanwhile, I know what works and what the typical spread happens to be.

In answer to your question I've shot 2 different 308 loads in probably 1/2 dozen rifles for each. Velocity differences have been very close within same barrel lengths and very close to manual and quickload predictions of velocity variations per Inch of barrel length.

What were you thinking about here?..............DJ

For a new reloader I would suggest the following

• Please get your basics right first & keep it simple for the first year.
  
• Write down a list of priorities - establish a strict habit & routine - that is the key to safety & repeatable quality
  
• Build up your confidence and establish a comfort zone before you start experimenting too much.
  
• I started with the Lyman manual - you cannot go wrong with that - stick to one manual for the first year
  
• Avoid using too many sources of data & manuals or Programs - Quick Load is NOT for a begginer IMHO.
  
• I have Shooting Chrony & it is reliable (Pro Chrony in my opinion is less reliable but others may disagree)
  
• I started with 2 calibers and just 3 loads in each. I avoid making too many changes in components - too many changes in components leads to confusion and possible errors
  
• I try for best accuracy at near max velocity. I do not try to reach max book velocity as an objective. Occasionally I am please if I get high velocity with an accurate & safe load.
  
• Learn to measure the case head expansion with a micrometer - blade caliper is not precise enough. You should keep expansion below 0.0004 inches IMHO - Keep careful records for long term reference. You may need 10 years later if you come across an unexpected problem.
  
• Primer pocket expansion is critical - if the primer re-seats easily your load is too hot. You should get a minimum of 10 reloads with your cases (non-belted calibers) & all primer seating should be FIRM
  
• You will always hear people claiming that they get 100 fps more with 2 grains more etc. I have stopped arguing with them. IMHO if your load gives you 100 fps more than book max, you are too hot & dangerous.
  
• Bullet seating depth is critical for pressure. My Hunting loads are 0.020 inch off grooves for safe quick loading in the field - John Barsness' recommendation

Safety first, accuracy next and velocity is the final bonus.

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:

quote:

Originally posted by icemanls2:

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:
Icemanis2, I would STRONGLY recommend that you do NOT use Quickload as your final say in what is safe or unsafe loads.

I would never use a computer program as my only source! It is a source of information for me as well as hornady 3rd edition, Speer 14th edition, Reloaders Digest and a few others combined with the common sense signs of high pressure. The load i entered into quickload comes straight from Speers 14th edition and i wanted to compare as they list 51 grains as MAX and do not denote it as being compressed. I know it is compressed though cause i filled the case and i weigh EVERY charge with RCBS (pact) partner scale and double check it on my beam.

Good, you've got it then. Your first post said that you were relatively new to handloading. Most new handloaders wouldn't have as many manuals are using so I was trying to give what I thought was advice to a less experienced reloader than you appear to be. Even VERY experienced reloaders need to be reminded of things sometimes ........................DJ

I appreciate all the help and info i've gotten in here.When i said i was new I am to bottleneck cartridges that headspace on the shoulder. I started when i was young with my grandfather but he would only let me touch so much before i got in trouble, lol. We cast bullets, lubed and sized them, he told how many grains of powder, etc. and i assembled them with his close eye. He died when i was 18, i'm 38 now and have lumbered through on my own mainly reloading for pistols, we never got to the part of case inspection, what caused this or that, etc. That was his job,I was the shooter and he said I really made his work shine. But i have really been bitten by the bug to really get into it heavy like nobody's buisness lately. He was my shooting partner and when that was gone i've had a void for a long time. But i'm back now! I wasn't trying to be smart, so i'll accept any valid info i can get cause i don't know it all.(did i say that?)

No worries Iceman. Sometimes we can get a little overzelous in our arguements but hopefully most of it is good natured. I hope you continue to enjoy posting here. HC and I disagree on some stuff but he often is one of the most helpful posters on the forum. We try to keep the debates within reason but it might not always seem so.

Reloading can be a hobby unto itself. You know that you are a true reloading nut when you go shooting just to have something to reload! Trust me, it can happen ..............DJ

Nakihunter, I think the one thing that I'm going to disagree with you about is that I don't think you can have too many reloading data resources. I think it's a good idea to check the same data in several manuals, you can then see if one particular manual has data that's much different from others. I like to make a chart for a caliber and bullet weight showing all the manuals maximum loads. I'll throw out high or low values and go with the average. If you only have one manual you might find the one exceptionally high load and not know that it was.

As long as you keep them in perspective I don't think you can have too much good data................DJ

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:
Nakihunter, I think the one thing that I'm going to disagree with you about is that I don't think you can have too many reloading data resources. I think it's a good idea to check the same data in several manuals, you can then see if one particular manual has data that's much different from others. I like to make a chart for a caliber and bullet weight showing all the manuals maximum loads. I'll throw out high or low values and go with the average. If you only have one manual you might find the one exceptionally high load and not know that it was.

As long as you keep them in perspective I don't think you can have too much good data................DJ

I was making my comment in the context of someone starting off. Starting with one good set of data like the Lyman manual is more than enough for a start.

Your comment is valid for someone with confidence in comparing data etc. - as it requires some experience to start comparing data in a safe manner. Change of one component like case , primer, powder or bullet will cause big changes in pressure. I would not recommend a beginner to compare reloading data until he has gained some confidence with basics. You of course are not a beginner...

Good luck with your reloading.

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:
No worries Iceman. Sometimes we can get a little overzelous in our arguements but hopefully most of it is good natured. I hope you continue to enjoy posting here. HC and I disagree on some stuff but he often is one of the most helpful posters on the forum. We try to keep the debates within reason but it might not always seem so.

Reloading can be a hobby unto itself. You know that you are a true reloading nut when you go shooting just to have something to reload! Trust me, it can happen ..............DJ

Already has! Ive been burning up boxes of .308 remington corelokts that i've had for the cases like nobody's buisness!

quote:

In answer to your question I've shot 2 different 308 loads in probably 1/2 dozen rifles for each. Velocity differences have been very close within same barrel lengths and very close to manual and quickload predictions of velocity variations per Inch of barrel length.

What were you thinking about here?...DJ

I would suggest that if you ever have the opportunity to Test more rifles, chambered for the same Cartridge, with the same barrel length, that you will see a very wide FPS difference. I saw mostly +/-200fps variation with a few going +/-300fps. Once you get a chance to see it first-hand, unlike jackfish and alf, I realize you are smart enough to rethink your position on Velocity being a good Pressure indicator.

What do you recommend that a Wildcatter use to determine when his Pressure is beginning to go too high?

Thank you Ol' Joe, I do believe you have made my point, intentionally or otherwise.

quote:

Originally posted by Ol` Joe:
From the Hornady #7 pg 74

In some caribers and for some cartridges, pressure barrels were not available. We developed and tested in these situations by employing a factory or custom firearm and by examining the brass case and fired case extracted from the chamber. The brass case will show several indications of increasing pressures. One is case head expansion as measured by a good micrometer and compared to a fired factory loaded cartridge. Other pressure signs of significance were cratered or flatteneed primers, brass flow into ejector slots, case head seperations, as well as difficult case extraction.
We employed the procedures above only when we had no other opions. The vast majority of the data in this book was derived from the use of strain gages.

So when the $$$Multi-Million$$$ Factory did not have Pressure Barrels, they used good old CHE & PRE.

Which leads to the inevitable question, how many average Reloaders have access to Certified, Calibrated Pressure Barrels in a Lab environment - when the $$$Multi-Million$$$ Factory did not have them???

quote:

From The Speer #14 pg pg 58

When you try to use an alternative system like case head expansion, you may go outside parameters of your firearm. Stick with published data. ...

I do agree with that. Some of the old Cartridges operate at Pressures waaaaay too Low to use CHE. If you were to see any CHE at all, you have gone beyond the intended Pressure for some of those old firearms.

Fortunately however, PRE then works perfectly "if" it is used as directed in the Link. If the Link I provided is not used, then the results could also result in a Ka-Boom.
-----

Thanks again Ol' Joe, that was just the kind of Factory "support" for CHE & PRE that I needed.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Once you get a chance to see it first-hand, unlike jackfish and alf, I realize you are smart enough to rethink your position on Velocity being a good Pressure indicator.

There you go again, not responding to a rebuttal of your comments and then misrepresenting what someone has said. I never said velocity is a good pressure indicator or that one can determine absolute pressure from velocity (although QuickLOAD creates pretty good estimates considering its limitations). I did say and prove that there is a relationship between velocity and pressure when you said that velocity tells one absolutely nothing at all about pressure. And because of that relationship there is value in measuring and considering velocity as one works up a load. A chronograph is just one tool of many available to the reloader which has its place in adding to all the different information used in load development.

If there were no relationship at all between velocity and pressure then Homer Powley wouldn't have been able to create the Powley Calculator and NECO wouldn't have been able to produce QuickLOAD. If there were no relationship at all between velocity and pressure then reloading manuals would not prescribe that neither the charge nor velocity of a published load be exceeded.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

In answer to your question I've shot 2 different 308 loads in probably 1/2 dozen rifles for each. Velocity differences have been very close within same barrel lengths and very close to manual and quickload predictions of velocity variations per Inch of barrel length.

What were you thinking about here?...DJ

I would suggest that if you ever have the opportunity to Test more rifles, chambered for the same Cartridge, with the same barrel length, that you will see a very wide FPS difference. I saw mostly +/-200fps variation with a few going +/-300fps. Once you get a chance to see it first-hand, unlike jackfish and alf, I realize you are smart enough to rethink your position on Velocity being a good Pressure indicator.

What do you recommend that a Wildcatter use to determine when his Pressure is beginning to go too high?

HC, I HAVE tested a number of rifles in several different calibers with the same barrel length. I've loaded for 8 or 9 270 winchesters, a dozen or more 223's, 5 270 WSM's, 8 or 9 300 Win Mags. With the same loads velocities HAVE been pretty consistant minus some other measurable factor like a particularly long throat.

In answer to your second question. There are formulas to compute the velocity change for adding a given amount of powder. You can set your baseline as the parent case figure the difference in % added and compute the expected additional velocity. The added velocity per % of powder volumn is pretty low and most wildcats would probably never have been built if somebody was actually pressure testing them...............................DJ

quote:

The vast majority of the data in this book was derived from the use of strain gages.

Again Hot Core seeing only that which he thinks supports his assertions and ignores that which flies in the face that strain gauges are worthless. Oh, I forgot a strain gauge all of a sudden works once it is employed in a laboratory.

I would suggest a faster powder for 110gr bullets in 308w i use Norma N201 for such light bullets.
You get a fast load with less powder its cheaper for plinking.
Reloader15 is better for 150-180gr bullets.

quote:

Stonecreek, Thanks for the comeback. I agree with your analysis - that is, a "hot" reloaded case should be able to retain a reuseable primer pocket for at least 3 reloadings. Since this may seem "case abuse" to some reloaders, it's not a problem for me, because I only use "hot" reloads like this for big game hunting, and end up shooting these rounds as few as 4 shots per year (i.e., 3 shots to check my sight-in and 1 shot for the buck). Besides, cases are fairly cheap, when one considers all the other expenses of our hobby.

I define a primer pocket as too loose when I can push the primer back out of the case with gentle finger pressure (not to worry they don't ignite). Waiting for the primer to fall out by gravity is way too loose in my opinion, yet such primers are rarely blown, because they obdurate and seal the pocket.

Finally, from my analysis of the literature and discussion with a number of "experts," I believe that early pressure signs on once fired cases begin to occur with frequency around 65,000 PSI - 5,000 less than what Oehler is reported to have stated above. Pockets will "blow" (toasted) with one firing at from 75,000 to 80,000 PSI.

What are your thoughts?

Regards, AIU

Wow! The schoolyard name calling has gotten rather out of hand on this thread. Disregarding all of that, and responding to your post, AIU:

I'm essentially in agreement with you.

I don't know how to quantify the actual PSI at which cases typically begin to expand to an unsustainable degree.

I met Ken Oehler years ago and have a lot of respect for him. He has attempted to convert the readings from his strain gage instrument to a numerical value expressed in PSI, largely because that's what shooters demand. The problem is the use of PSI for extremely high and transient pressures. It works okay for car tires, but not so good for miniature, semi-contained explosions.

I believe that the numbers, whether expressed in PSI, CUP, kPa, or camel loads aren't too relavent. What is relavent is how much powder can you put in your cartridge before the case starts to give way? Again, this depends on the metallurgy, thickness, hardness, etc. of the case itself. Commercial U.S.-made cases all fall pretty close to each other in these qualities, and I'm confident that all of them are somewhat weaker than my late model turnbolt rifles.

So, like you, I don't let case expansion which shows up around the fourth loading stampede me. If the load shoots good in the rifle, provides me the velocity I'm looking for, and cases last through three or four cycles, and it exhibits no cycling problems, then it's an OK load for a game hunting rifle.

On the other hand, I like to get plenty of "mileage" out of a varmint rifle's cases, so I'm much more picky about pressures in those cases. I'll gladly trade 50 fps in velocity for a half-dozen more loadings from a varmint rifle case. I'm sure that someone shooting primarily targets would feel the same way.

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:
In answer to your second question. There are formulas to compute the velocity change for adding a given amount of powder. You can set your baseline as the parent case figure the difference in % added and compute the expected additional velocity. The added velocity per % of powder volumn is pretty low and most wildcats would probably never have been built if somebody was actually pressure testing them...............................DJ

I see. So this all goes along with your "experience" that there is little difference in Velocity(and of course the Pressure) between multiple rifles of the same Caliber and barrel length. I understand why you believe the way you do. It is just that I disagree because my experience is different.

I enjoyed actually "discussing" the issue with you - even though we do not agree.

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:
In answer to your second question. There are formulas to compute the velocity change for adding a given amount of powder. You can set your baseline as the parent case figure the difference in % added and compute the expected additional velocity. The added velocity per % of powder volumn is pretty low and most wildcats would probably never have been built if somebody was actually pressure testing them...............................DJ

I see. So this all goes along with your "experience" that there is little difference in Velocity(and of course the Pressure) between multiple rifles of the same Caliber and barrel length. I understand why you believe the way you do. It is just that I disagree because my experience is different.

I enjoyed actually "discussing" the issue with you - even though we do not agree.

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.

I really wish that you still had the Ruger that you beleive had a "fast barrel" so that you could put a strain guage on it and see what pressures it really was operating at. That would help settle the arguement.

But in the end I think that we mostly agree. I don't think that you are a reloader that is using 1 measurement as an excuse to keep stuffing powder in cases like some are.

I like the idea of having 3 limiting factors for my max loads. One is I don't go over the best pressure tested data I can find in manuals etc. 2 I don't exceed velocities that a given chambering typically reaches. 3 if I do get any of the traditional signs I back off and figure out why. Any of the three is a limiting factor for me. A lot of reloaders only use 1 of the three as their limit and that can results in loads well up into the 70K+ range.............................................DJ

quote:

Originally posted by Nordic2:
I would suggest a faster powder for 110gr bullets in 308w i use Norma N201 for such light bullets.
You get a fast load with less powder its cheaper for plinking.
Reloader15 is better for 150-180gr bullets.

Point taken! I'm looking into that issue and will look into that powder.I'm not sure if i have data on that powder for .308(loadbooks USA may have it)I'll have to look online at their site. These are mainly for rough paper punching and plinking, Mainly just shooting time.

quote:

Originally posted by Rae59:
How many of you have ever seen or personally know of a bolt action gun blowing up in someones face with the correct caliber/chamber cartridges???????????
I personally only know of one rifle coming apart but the shooter somehow got a .30 cal. cartidge to go off in a 7mm barrel. Talk about high pressure spikes!!!!
Something else I would like to point out is if there was this exact correlation between pressure and velocity, that some of you have suggested, then you would NOT need anything longer than a 2" barrel. But as most of know with all powders there is a sweet spot in barrel length for each powder. The slower the powder (usually) the longer the barrel needed. This is based on bore/case capacity ratio.

Personally, I am a realist. As long as the bolt lifts without much trouble and the case comes out quickly, and the gun doesn't come apart after I have fired over 500 rounds, the primers don't fall out on the way to the chamber or blow out when fired and spew gas in my eyes, I really don't care if I am getting 100,000 psi. No, I don't get crazy with it, if I see ejector marks then I back off.

I know I will catch HELL for this post, so gentlemen, I stand before you blind folded awaiting your bullets to pierce my heart.......... my so deemed high pressure loads certainly have not done it.

Come on guys, I thought for sure I would get a rise out of somebody for this post!

quote:

Originally posted by Rae59:

quote:

Originally posted by Rae59:
How many of you have ever seen or personally know of a bolt action gun blowing up in someones face with the correct caliber/chamber cartridges???????????
I personally only know of one rifle coming apart but the shooter somehow got a .30 cal. cartidge to go off in a 7mm barrel. Talk about high pressure spikes!!!!
Something else I would like to point out is if there was this exact correlation between pressure and velocity, that some of you have suggested, then you would NOT need anything longer than a 2" barrel. But as most of know with all powders there is a sweet spot in barrel length for each powder. The slower the powder (usually) the longer the barrel needed. This is based on bore/case capacity ratio.

Personally, I am a realist. As long as the bolt lifts without much trouble and the case comes out quickly, and the gun doesn't come apart after I have fired over 500 rounds, the primers don't fall out on the way to the chamber or blow out when fired and spew gas in my eyes, I really don't care if I am getting 100,000 psi. No, I don't get crazy with it, if I see ejector marks then I back off.

I know I will catch HELL for this post, so gentlemen, I stand before you blind folded awaiting your bullets to pierce my heart.......... my so deemed high pressure loads certainly have not done it.

Come on guys, I thought for sure I would get a rise out of somebody for this post!

I've heard of self-rising flour. Are you a self-rising Poster? ..............DJ

I just hate being ignored.

Hey DJ, That 7mmRemMag was one of the original M77s. I also had one in 243Win and it was also a bit "Fast", but not as much as the 7mmRemMag. I believe it was due to the Bore and Grooves being a bit larger in diameter to the Remington rifles I got to replace them. You could tell a difference by how much force it took to push a Bore Brush through those Rugers. As well as I can remember, they did not Foul very bad either, but that could partially be due to all the Cleaning those Barrels got.

The reason I re-mention this, is if you can locate someone with an original M77, with the Tang mounted Safety, it "might" exhibit the same thing I saw.

I believe Ruger out-sourced their Barrels back then. And "guessing" that Bill Ruger may have specified to have the Barrels Bores and Lands made at the large end of the normal dimensions to keep routine Factory Ammo Pressure down a bit. But, if you think back to that time period, lots of folks were crying and whining about Factory Ammo being so anemic. So, perhaps that was not why those Barrels were made the way they were.

quote:

Originally posted by Rae59:
How many of you have ever seen or personally know of a bolt action gun blowing up in someones face with the correct caliber/chamber cartridges???????????

Hey Rae, I didn't respond because I have no "personal" experience with a rifle Ka-Booming.

I've never owned one of the Sako(junks) that was discussed Exploding with factory ammo on the Gun Smith Board. Nor did any of the (rag) Pre-64 M70s I used in my youth Explode like those shown in PO Ackley's books because of impurities in the Actions. I consider myself lucky in that reguard.

Have had some strange unexpected Pressure Spikes(noted because of good-old never-fail CHE & PRE) in a couple of different firearms. Changing the Powder corrected those issues before they caused a Ka-Boom. Last time I saw the erratic spikes was when I was foolish enough to try some of seafire's Blue Dot Loads. Fortunately for me, I caught those Pressure Spikes before the improper use of Blue Dot Ka-Boomed me.
-----

I heard a rumor the "new" Mossberg rifles were recalled for something, but I can't remember if it was Ka-Booms or what. Pitiful for a persons memory to go down as we age.

Best of luck to you.

quote:

Originally posted by Rae59:
How many of you have ever seen or personally know of a bolt action gun blowing up in someones face with the correct caliber/chamber cartridges???????????

I do know of a gun that Kaboomed, I wasn't there for the Kaboom but have examined the pieces etc.. It was with a gun that had a "fast barrel" with "Long Seated" bullets that Quickload said was running at safe pressures and with a load that gave no traditional pressure signs, cases lasted for several loads, until one blew the gun up...............................DJ

You dont have to use that powder just one at similar burnrate. For example reloader 11, VV n135

quote:

Originally posted by Nordic2:
You dont have to use that powder just one at similar burnrate. For example reloader 11, VV n135

I was looking into several powders, That being one of them. I got your point though.

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:

quote:

Originally posted by Rae59:
How many of you have ever seen or personally know of a bolt action gun blowing up in someones face with the correct caliber/chamber cartridges???????????

I do know of a gun that Kaboomed, I wasn't there for the Kaboom but have examined the pieces etc.. It was with a gun that had a "fast barrel" with "Long Seated" bullets that Quickload said was running at safe pressures and with a load that gave no traditional pressure signs, cases lasted for several loads, until one blew the gun up...............................DJ

Hello DJ, I'm not questioning your sincerity, but do you have any more details on the "kaboom" gun, ie. make, model, loads etc. All failures give warning signs. It's just that sometimes they are almost un-noticable to most, like hairline cracks, minute bulges, etc.

Hey Rae, I've not witnessed these personally, but they are on AR and you can look them over for yourself.

I remember meeting a Cop in Huntsville, AL where I was shooting my revolver down by the river. He mentioned he had a revolver come apart on him using some kind of Factory Reloads(can't remember the Brand). He told me he was doing "Double Taps" and apparently the first Bullet lodged in the barrel.

As luck would have it, I'd seen his Ka-Boomed revolver at "JC's Gun Shop" on display in the counter. Probably still there if you ever pass through Huntsville.

Here is one you can see.

Here is another one.

One or more of the Sako-junk links below contain flicks. I do not know if they are still active or not.

Sako-junk explosions.

More Sako-junk explosion discussions

Still more discussion on Sako-junk explosions.

Thanks for the links HotCore.
When there is faulty/inadequate materials or workmanship involved in the manufacturing process of a firearm then in my opion how can anyone determine a safe pressure? There is no such thing. Each individual firearm would have to be anylized and X-rayed for quality of materials and then given a safe pressure range or fatigue cycle range.

I own two foreign bolt action rifles, unfortunatly in larger calibers (338 WM in a Tikka T3 and a 375 H&H in a CZ 550). I hope they have the problems solved with the Tikka! I can't easily get any descent velocity with the Tikka 338 so I am pushing the loads just a tad. If I suddenly stop posting here on the AR then you will know my pressure theories were wrong.............

RAE59, The rifle I saw the Kaboom on was a Winchester Model 70 in an Ackley Improved caliber. There were no signs of impending destruction. The loads that it had been shooting were REAL fast. I believe that the kaboom was a result of Cumilative metal fatigue but since there wasn't any prior metal tests etc etc it would be pretty hard to prove post facto.

Like I've said before I'd rather just stay within reasonable velocity and powder charge limits. If you really need that extra 200fps buy a larger caliber instead of overstressing a smaller one.

By the same token I don't particularly see the need to vastly underload rounds either. I was at the range one day and the shooter next to me was bragging about his nice light loads in a 7mm Rem Mag that were at 7-08 velocity levels. He didn't seem to appreciate my comment that he could be getting the same velocities safely with a 7-08 and use a lot less powder in a shorter barrel.

As far as your Tikka 338 Win Mag goes, have you measured the throat length? Several of my Sako's (same barrels as Tikka's) have rather long throats that tend to reduce velocities a good bit.
FWIW my Sako 338 Win Mag likes 71.0grs of IMR-4350 and a 225gr Accubond real well. I forget the velocities exactly but they are adequate - I shot my first Elk with the load....................................DJ

quote:

When there is faulty/inadequate materials or workmanship involved in the manufacturing process of a firearm then in my opion how can anyone determine a safe pressure?

They are all supposed to have "Proof Loads" shot through them which are at a much higher Pressure level than we all consider Safe for long term shooting. Once it is Proofed, they really should hang together. No idea at all about the Sako's, except their Management really drug their feet in responding to the issue. You can see that in those threads.

quote:

If I suddenly stop posting here on the AR then you will know my pressure theories were wrong...

Perhaps I should introduce you to the very best Pressure Indication Methods - OF ALL TIME - good old CHE & PRE.
-----

quote:

By DJ:
Like I've said before I'd rather just stay within reasonable velocity and powder charge limits. If you really need that extra 200fps buy a larger caliber instead of overstressing a smaller one.

By the same token I don't particularly see the need to vastly underload rounds either.

And we are still in agreement.

I do like a 7mmRemMag to perform at that level, or any other cartridge to perform at it's proper level. What I refer to as a Safe MAX Load ensures long Case Life, good accuracy, and plenty of available Energy in accordance with what should be expected from a particular Cartridge.

I do not see having "Weenie Loads" so kids can start shooting before they are actually ready as a good thing.