First I would like to say thanks to all the knowledgeable people who have written articles and given tips on how to size, anneal, and prepare brass on these forums. I have been reloading for about 17 years and would have continued on the same old path of basic brass preparation and would not have been able to achieve the level of accuracy I have without this knowledge you guys have shared. Now that I have read several articles and discussions on annealing I have learned how to do it properly and am amazed how it extends case life and accuracy. For my factory rifles I size brass with a full length sizer but size with the die adjusted to where the bolt closes easily. For my custom I neck size until I start feeling resistance on the bolt and then I just bump the shoulder with a redding body die to get the same effect as when I full length size. This is 3 to 4 firings. My question is this....How long (or can) my brass last without fear of case head separation? I use a straightened paper clip with a small bend at one end to feel inside the case and after about 12 firings and 3 anneals I still do not feel the dip in the case that has been described as incipient case head separation. Thanks in advance.


Russ

It's difficult to give any hard or blanket statement; there are too many variables. Usually, the hotter you load 'em the shorter case life will be.

I have some 7x57 cases that are on their 17th loading.

But I have other cases that have given me case head separation after 8 or 9 firings.

Shotshell hulls are another story. Some of them are good for 8 to 10 loadings, and others last for only about 3. Generally speaking, 12 ga. hulls last longer than smaller ones, with 28 ga. and .410 often lasting the least number of loadings and firings..

"How long (or can) my brass last without fear of case head separation?"

Any answer to that question would be no more than a wild ass guess. Far too many variables for any rational answer to mean anything. Perhaps the most significant variable is how you size your cases. Neck sizing helps and Lee's Collet Neck Sizer works the brass the least amount possible.

When FL sizing, the less you move the shoulder the longer the cases will last. Get an RCBS Precision Case Mic and measure your fired case shoulder location. Adjust your sizer to only move it nack maybe a couple of thousanths each time. Sized correctly, cases will readily chamber and the necks will split before anything seperates.

Proper sizing and properly annealing necks after each 5 to 7 loadings will allow cases to last a long time, even with heavy loads.

You'll be amazed at the pressure difference just a couple of grains of powder will make. Consider the following from the Hodgdon .308 Win data:

165 GR. HDY SP IMR IMR 4320 .308" 2.750" 43.0 gr 2536 fps 46,900 PSI 46.5C gr 2730 fps 58,400 PSI

Just 3.5 grains of powder increases pressure 25%. Pressure, as others have noted, makes a great difference in brass life. That's not to say you should load light, but the partial answer to your question is hot loads greatly shorten brass life.

But that may or may not matter. For a hunting load that you will shoot very little, a couple of hundred pieces of brass will last the lifetime of the gun and then some. Plus, you'll lose in the field a fair number of cases and you'll want to full length resize every time to insure function. So that really shouldn't be your primary concern for hunting ammo.

On the other hand, for a bench rest or varmint gun that you shoot a lot, you have a whole host of other considerations.

LWD

Another factor to consider when discussing case life is the alloy used to make the case. Premium brass is made with a different mix of metals than the standard stuff. IMHO, it's more economical to buy the best brass and get fewer culls and many more loadings than it is to use the cheap stuff. Range brass is not even on the radar.

I've used mostly Lapua and Norma, but a couple years ago I bought some Nosler, mainly because of the wild claim Nosler was making about how many loadings you could get. I'm still shooting that brass after 30 loadings (6 annealings) it shows no sign of breaking down yet. I just wish they made it in 220 Russian or better yet 6ppc.

As stated above, the answer to your (actually very good question), is no one knows.

What you can rely on is probability based on what is known, and what you can control.

Obviously, you can take into account what makes brass NOT last so long v. what helps it last quite a long time.

I think we can all agree that there are things you can control. Brass, generally, will last longest when you work it the least, from sizing to firing, and annealing often.

That is why I like a tight neck chamber, no more than ~ 0.004 larger than a loaded round in the preferred brass. Also, it is best, imo, to have a sizer die that will reduce the OD of the sized case neck no more than .002 (after spring back) less than a loaded round. So, total expansion is only .006 from sized to fired. Don't use the expander. Get your sizer dies honed by the manufacturer. Only bump the shoulder back .001, no more than .002.

I spoke with 4 individuals who sell annealing units, and several BR shooters, and all agree that case life is usually greatly extended by annealing the necks. Ken Light stated that as an example, some brass has been shown to easily reuse 30+ times. That is truly remarkable, as I've always pitched brass after 8 or so firings, or gave it away telling the recipient how many times it's been used.

Contrast all of that with a typical saami spec chamber and a sizing die that overworks the case neck and no annealing. Now you are really working that brass. My Redding 270 die was squeezing the neck so tight that the smallest diameter on Winchester brass compared to a fired brass in a saami spec chamber was almost 20 thousandths difference.

If you are truly setting your FL die to bump the shoulder back only .001 or .002 your cases will probably crack in the body before you get a case head separation. This assumes you are using a strong front locking bolt. If you are using a rear locking action it is difficult to make any prediction.
The reason is your cases are not being stretched longitudinally but are being stretched radially by being sized and fired. Pretty much like a balloon being inflated and deflated. You anneal the necks but you do not anneal the body. Eventually the body cracks.

I have fired 6X47, 44 Magnum and 45-70 cases in excess of 30 times each with the failure eventually being body splits.

Hey Russ

Case head separations are a by product of excessive space between the case shoulder and chamber shoulder. When the firing pin slams into the primer it pushes the case forward till the case shoulder contacts the chamber shoulder. Then the case body expands out to the chamber and grips it, the pressure then forces the case head back to the bolt face and the case thins at the pressure ring just in front of the solid case head



A very large majority of this thinning, I'll guess at 90%, happens when you fire new cases. You are doing the right thing by just barely bumping the shoulder back after 3 or 4 firings. This limits the thinning at the pressure ring for cases that have been fire formed. However, you need to find out how much of a gap you have on new cases to see if you need to pay extra attention to watch for case head separations in your rifle.

The amount of space (I hesitate to call it headspace cause I'll get flamed and all the nitpickers will tell me it isn't headspace on a belted case) in front of a new case varies according to the brass you are using and your chamber. For instance I have taken the following measurements on some of my rifles:

rifle / new case measurement / fully expanded measurement / total shoulder movement

Rem 22-250 / 1.5770" / 1.5875" / .0105"
Custom 6.5 rem mag / 1.768" / 1.785" / .017"
Win 264 win mag / 2.109" / 2.1385" / .0295"
Custom 280AI / 2.135" / 2.152" / .017"
Steyr 30-06 / 2.040" / 2.051" / .011"
Mato 300 win mag / 2.253" / 2.2725" / .0195"
Mato 338 win mag / 2.097" / 2.124" / .027"

Notice that the belted cases have more initial gap than the 06 type cases. The brass manufacturers know that the belted magnums are supposed to headspace on the belt and they put a lot of gap between the new case shoulder and most belted magnum chambers. That information is what you need to know.

The one and only case head separation I had was in that 338 win mag



It was on the 6th reloading of those cases. I pulled some bullets from the others that I had loaded and could not feel anything with a bent paper clip. Would more have separated? I don't know, I tossed them.

That 338 win mag is off being rebarreled to a 338 RUM, the Winchester pre-64 264 win mag I sold and I am watching the 300 win mag like a hawk. I will probably toss that brass after 6 or 7 reloadings.

I am now reloading to jamb the bullets on the first loading of new cases (reduced loads of course) in order to keep the brass case from moving forward from being slammed by the firing pin. The case will then have to expand forward to the shoulder rather than expanding backward to the bolt face, at least in theory.

Also with the 300 win mag I am contemplating using 300 Weatherby Magnum cases and resizing in a 300 win mag die to set the shoulder where I am headspacing on the shoulder to begin with. Work in progress, will let you know how that turns out, lot of trimming.

I have not had any luck detecting the beginning of case head separation either with the bent paper clip or even splitting a case and measuring at the pressure ring.

doing all of that... my brass ends it's life with having the case crack at the Web now instead of at the neck...

I've also learned to lube the necks differently that have helped provide much longer case life in the neck area..

I put a bore cleaning brush on a bore rod for a pistol.. in a slightly oversized caliber... say a 6mm brush for a 22 cal bore...

I take a shot of Rem Spray Lube and zap it on the bore brush and run it thru the necks before resizing.. cleans out the gunk in the neck and lubes it some at the same time...

now some brass is up to 20 reloads.. and the necks are doing fine,.. and I don't anneal yet...

The number of times I have to full length resize is what causes the webs to eventually weaken and crack...

Starting off with a case that is longer than the chamber and FL sizing it so that it just barely allows the bolt to close cuts down on the initial stretching.

Having a case head that is a very close fit to the chamber diameter cuts down on stretching and thinning

Using a light film of oil allows the case walls to slip which cuts down on the stretching and thinning.

Having a very smooth chamber finish give the case less texture to grab and allow it to slip and cuts down on case thinning.

OTH:
1. Get a springy rear locking action with a lot of headspace
2. It has to have a lot of clearance around the case head .. the head diameter must be about .010 smaller than the chamber diameter
3. The chamber has to be rough
4. The brass and chamber have to be bone dry
5. Make the brass very hard
6. Make sure the first load is maximum

What you have above is a typical #1 MK III Lee-Enfield capable of separating case heads on the first shot with factory ammo.

Most commonly found separated cases are from Lee-Enfields.

99 Savages tend to do it also.

quote:

OTH:
1. Get a springy rear locking action with a lot of headspace
2. It has to have a lot of clearance around the case head .. the head diameter must be about .010 smaller than the chamber diameter
3. The chamber has to be rough
4. The brass and chamber have to be bone dry
5. Make the brass very hard
6. Make sure the first load is maximum

What you have above is a typical #1 MK III Lee-Enfield capable of separating case heads on the first shot with factory ammo.

Absolutely! But keep those fireformed cases properly lubed, pressures mild and headspace on the shoulder and the cases last forever.

Shooting cases that are lubed?
Am I understanding this correctly?
You put a lubed case into your rifle and shoot it?
Is this some new trend? I was taught never fire a cartridge that had any lube on it and NEVER lubricate your chamber. The given reason was that bolt thrust increases greatly if the case can't grab and hold the chamber immediately after firing.
I have cases that have been loaded over 20 times. I neck size only and I leave the last 1/16"of the neck unsized. I shoot moderate loads (about 95-97%) of maximumum listed loads. That is where I find the most accurate loads not a hard fast rule.All my loads are developed for the best accuracy and most consistancy that I can wring out of them.
I don't anneal the necks and the last case failure I had was a military brass with 23 loads on it - the cartridge split from below the shoulder 1/4" to a length of about 3/4". I suspect that it was because of the original primer using mercury perchlorate - standard 40's military primer. The rest of the batch have been fine so far. Primer pockets are all tight and all of them produce sub-MOA groups.

Thanks for all the replies. Well all my rifles are Remington 700. I shoot 22-250 with 52 gr Nosler custom comp in front of 34.3 gr of Benchmark, winchester case and cci large rifle primer. Brass is sized in a Forser FL die as I stated above with the die adjusted where the bolt will just close with no resistance; 6mm Remington with 85 gr speer bt in front of 45.7 gr of H4350, Remington case and cci large rifle primer. Brass is sized as with 22-250; .308
Winchester with 165 gr nosler ballistic tips in front of 45.7 gr. of varget with Lapua brass and cci benchrest primers. Brass is neck sized with redding type s bushing die. My loaded rounds measure .338, I size with a .337 bushing. After about 3 to 4 firings I start getting resistance and I set the redding body die up to size the brass the same way as my full length dies, just to the point where i get no resistance on the bolt closing.
I am just starting to get some slightly loose primer pockets with my 22-250 brass but they have been fired in excess of 15 times. I will probably keep loading them until I feel that uncomfortable "uh oh that primer is way too loose" feeling. But as long as they hold primers and I am not getting any other signs of failure I guess I am good to go.
All my loads were worked up with Dan Newberry's load development ladder test and these loads I have listed are excellent in my rifles. Yea I know they are on the verge of max charges but they work and if brass doesnt last as long at least I am getting the most accuracy possible.

Thanks again.

Russ

quote:

Originally posted by PaulS:
Shooting cases that are lubed?
Am I understanding this correctly?
You put a lubed case into your rifle and shoot it?
Is this some new trend? I was taught never fire a cartridge that had any lube on it and NEVER lubricate your chamber. The given reason was that bolt thrust increases greatly if the case can't grab and hold the chamber immediately after firing.
I have cases that have been loaded over 20 times. I neck size only and I leave the last 1/16"of the neck unsized. I shoot moderate loads (about 95-97%) of maximumum listed loads. That is where I find the most accurate loads not a hard fast rule.All my loads are developed for the best accuracy and most consistancy that I can wring out of them.
I don't anneal the necks and the last case failure I had was a military brass with 23 loads on it - the cartridge split from below the shoulder 1/4" to a length of about 3/4". I suspect that it was because of the original primer using mercury perchlorate - standard 40's military primer. The rest of the batch have been fine so far. Primer pockets are all tight and all of them produce sub-MOA groups.

When I fire form a new batch of cases the first time, I usually use a mild load with very, very slight oil film. But then again most of my loads are mild. Most of brass will out last me. There is no throwing away brass after 6 or 8 or 10 reloads for me. I use it until it cracks. Once several rounds crack in a lot I may retire it but sometimes I don't.

The cracked case you described above sounds like a case defect from the manufacturing process.
I formed some 6.5X53R Mannlicher brass from modern .303 British cases and one of them split with a zip zag body crack about like you describe.

quote:

Am I understanding this correctly?
You put a lubed case into your rifle and shoot it?

Asolutely! A case that 'locks' in the chamber in the forward position will likely give way when the pressure reaches a high level. It may stretch at the 'head separation' ring or it may just slide back. Either way, it strikes the bolt face with a sharp impact force which will send the load on the locking lugs sky high. (Note the shiny marks on the case head - that's from impacting on the bolt face). A lubed case, on the other hand, will settle back gradually with a progressive 'slip' against the chamber walls (note a fired case will have longer slip marks at the rear, shorter slip marks midway and no slip marks at the front - and no shiny marks on the head) keeping shock loads to a minimum and hence bolt face thrust to normal design levels. However, do note that a lubed case will still grip the chamber walls! The danger lies in letting liquid accumulate forward of the bullet in the bore. (Bore obstruction).