Tonight I was discussing variations in published data amongst well-established cartridges like the .223 Remington using common bullet weights (55 gr) and longstanding favorite powders for a particular caliber (H335).

Obviously, there are countless variables at play here, but I am curious as to how the trends of published data change over both the course of time as well as amongst the different manufacturers.

We started comparing data in manuals and other published sources we have on hand, both new and old. We added our findings to the following table for comparison:



Can you help us fill in the blanks with some PUBLISHED data that you have available?

I will update the table as we go along.

Hopefully it will make for some interesting comparisons and discussion.

Thanks in advance for your participation!

Hodgdon data manual #26 1993

25.3 gr @ 3203

whick means they have been posting this data for almost 20 years!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
whick means they have been posting this data for almost 20 years!

Haha! Busted!

Thanks for the data. I also added data for:
-Nosler #4 (did not verify date)
-Speer #10 (did not verify date)

.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Speer # 7

H335/55gr 25 gr @ 3040 fps - 27gr @ 3264 fps

Thanks ALF! #7, huh? That's a pretty good relic! What's the publication date on that? Any information on the rifle used and the components?

It makes it more interesting for example to see the 18 1/2" bbl Mini-14 data compared to the Mod 700 with the 26" bbl.

Thanks for the reply!

This is kind of interesting.

A small collection- some are not quite the same...

Barnes 2nd ed '97 53 gr XFB (not a 55, but as close as they had... 25 gr H335 3326 FPS using Fed 205 with rem cases

Hornady 5th Ed '00 23.2 gr H335 3100 FPS Win case, WSR primer Rem 700 with 26" BBL 1-12 twist

Hornady 4th ed '93 25.4 gr H335 3200 FPS Hornady/Frontier case Rem 71/2 primer Rem 700 24" BBL 1-12 twist.

Sierra 4th Ed '95 25.9 gr H335 3000 FPS Rem case Rem 7 1/2 primer Colt AR 15A2 HBAR 20" bbl 1-7 twist

Sierra ?ed '71 25.9 gr H335 3000 FPS Rem case Rem 7 1/2 primer Colt AR15 20" bbl 1-12 twist

Nosler 6th '07 25.0 gr H335 3140 FPS Nosler case Rem 7 1/2 Primer Lija Bbl 24" 1-12 twist

Hodgdon manual '98 25.3 gr H335 3203 FPS 26" bbl

Hodgdon manual 99 25.3 gr H335 3203 FPS 24" bbl Win case Win WSR primer

Hodgdon manual '06 25.3 gr H335 3202 FPS 24" bbl Win case WSR primer

Hodgdon 26th hardcover manual '93 25.3 gr H335 3202 FPS 26" bbl

Lyman 47th '92 26.5 gr H335 2967 FPS Rem case either CCI 450 or rem 7 1/2 primer, either AR 15 20" bbl or 24" universal receiver (not specified which for what data)

Lyman 48th '02 27.0 gr H335 3270 FPS Rem case Rem 7 1/2 Primer AR 15 20" 1-7 or universal receiver 24" 1-12

crbutler-

Damn! Are you a librarian or have you just been at this a while?

Thanks for all the data. The table has been updated.

[And yes, I'm jealous of your book collection! I love old handloading manuals... especially if they are a little tattered and well worn with lots of "character." My collection is growing, but I have a lot catching up to do!]

.

I am really concerned about comparing such data without standardising the bullet & case. I believe it is unsafe to compare across load data sources with huge variables in bullets, bearing surface & even diameter apart from cases & primers.

Now....

Is H335 of 20 years ago a military surplus powder while the current lots are made by ADI Australia? That could explain the difference in data within Hornady & Nosler. Worth checking, as this was the case with H4831.

Another note of caution - you will see in John Barsness' article from a few years ago in Handloader about H4831 in the 270 Win. He had used 62 gr max for years & got 3150 fps with 130 gr bullets. Then he did some load testing with pressure tests at the Ramshot plant for one of his articles & found that his load was giving 70,000 PSI - a dangerous overload!! Jack O'Connor also used the above hot load 50 years ago - WW2 military surplus cannon powder I am sure.

quote:

Originally posted by Kenati:
-Speer #10 (did not verify date)

1979 is correct.

Excellent project.

What a great project.

Publish date for your Speer #7 is 1966 (or mine is).

Speer #6 does not even list the 223
Hornady 1967 does not have a listing for H335 in a 223.
Lyman 43 publish 1964 no entry for 223
Hodgden #17 no date, no entry for 223

Nosler #2 1981, 25.0 gr @ 3170
Ruger #1 24", Case=Military, Primer= Rem 7 1/2

Hodgden #23 1977 27.0 gr @ 3281
Barrel=26"

OK thats it I'm at the bottom of the bookshelf.

Sierra #1 1971
25.9gr
Rem brass
Rem 7.5 primer
3000 fps / Colt AR15 with 20" 1/12" twist

Hodgdon #26 1992
25.3gr
Case unk
primer SR (unk)
3203 fps / 26" bbl

Nosler #5 2002
25.0gr
win brass
rem 7.5 primer
3140fps / universal reciever-lilja 24"

Hornady #1 has no H335 listed

ALF, Hot Core, RayGuntner, & Ol’ Joe-

Wow, you guys have some really old manuals! Do you old pack-rats ever throw anything away??
Haha! Kidding!

Thank you for the additions. The table has been updated.

I appreciate you taking the time to look them up and report back to us. Also, I appreciate you listing the manuals with omissions, but decided to leave them off the table for clarity’s sake. Let me know if you think otherwise.

Others, please continue to add more data as you wish.

I think we have enough data to discuss some of the variations and peculiarities with this venerable old cartridge.

NakiHunter brings up an excellent and quite plausible point about the formulary of the powder changing over the course of the past few decades. That would certainly change things!

Any other thoughts?

quote:

Any other thoughts?

This is not specific to the 223Rem, but may have some bearing on "some" of the differences.

Awhile back I swapped in a B&W 444Mar Guide Gun on a S&L 444Mar XLR. Also purchased a (new at the time) Speer #14 Manual.

Loaded up some of the old Starting Loads just to get a few rounds through it, get the Fire Sights I installed adjusted and the Scope on paper. All went well until I began looking at the PRE. It was at the MAX for the old 444Mar, but it could have been as simple as the Chamber being cut a bit different.

Kept checking things and while flipping through the new Speer #14. Noticed they had "Lowered" the Load levels. Huuummm. But they had an explaination for it. As Marlin began making the XLR rifles, they decided to tighten the Twist just a bit. Speer noticed it had Increased the Pressure with the old Loads and reduced them accordingly.

Speer now had the old Starting Loads as their Safe MAX Load level. And good old PRE verified it perfectly.

So, some of the differences you are seeing in the Listings could be as simple as Twist differences between the various firearms. Or a good may other things. I've found it extremely rare to have two barrels give similar Velocities or Pressures.

Best of luck to you.

Good example, Hot Core. You notice that dating back 30+ years, it has been a common practice to list the twist of the barrel, albeit I have given it little thought because I am usually using on of the common rates.

I know it has been discussed in other threads, but maybe others can comment on the rate of twist as it relates to pressure differences.

Here are some of my knee-jerk observations from the data above:

-HODGDON-
Apparently they are pretty happy with their data since they have been using the same numbers unchanged for 33 years!

-HORNADY-
Since 1982, they have been coming down on their max loads despite using what appears to be the same setup. In fact, they list the LOWEST maximum charge (2006 manual) within the entire group of publishers of any date. Makes you wonder if they are "Lawyer-proofing" their data.

-LYMAN-
I would be curious to sort out the test rifles for these data. It seems something made a major difference to gain 303 fps with 0.5 gr. of powder increase.

-NOSLER-
Consistent 25.0 gr. charge since 1981, all producing the same velocity (or close) despite using 3 different cases in at least two different guns.

-SIERRA-
has stayed with 25.9 gr. max in a Colt AR-15 for about FORTY (40!) years. They seemed to be satisfied with what was essentially the lowest published velocity (3000). Interestingly, they went out on a limb in their latest edition and published the HIGHEST charge ever at 27.5 gr. in a separate section covering a bolt action test rifle; rationalizing that the AR-15 platform cannot handle the same pressures as a bolt gun.

-SPEER-
Went 30 years at 27.0 grain before dropping there max charge by 1 grain.

-HORNADY (2006) VS. SIERRA (current)-
23.2 gr vs. 27.5 gr, respectively.
Interesting difference of 5.3 gr, which is a 21% DECREASE in the average maximum charge!