Hi all,
I've seen mention of getting rid of the expander ball due to inconsistent neck and shoulder stretching. How then is the neck expanded, or is it already large enough for a bullet?

In some cases dies will not constrict the neck beyond the ability to seat a bullet, particularly if you are using boattails. I believe what you have heard refers to going with bushing dies where you can control the constriction of the neck to provide whatever "grip" you want for the bullet.

You can check the constriction of any die easily. Measure a neck with a seated bullet. Then, remove the expander from the die you are checking. Size the case and measure the neck. If the difference is about .005" you can probably seat even a flat base bullet, but a boattaile will seat much easier. The only problem with this system is that the bullet grip does significantly affect accuracy. You're best off using bushing dies such as sold by Wilson or Redding.

I did this once with some .450 Alaskan rounds to see if I could use ammo so loaded without having to crimp! It worked perfectly!! If your sizing
die sizes the neck down enough to give proper tension on the bullet when seated, and you can seat the bullet without damaging the case neck or shoulder, why drag an expander button through the case mouth if it is not necessary??

It can jump pressures in some cases and is not recommended...I sometimes will turn .003 or .004 off the expander ball for my big bores and use a very light crimp combined with a full case of powder of the right type...this stops bullet setback from recoil and insures feed and extraction on a DGR....

What you suggest can and has been done, but I would first want a chamber cast and go from there with a known plan...Bench resters do this and have 0 tolerence in thier bench guns, but in a hunting rifle, especially a DGR, your playing a dangerous game and/or perhaps heading for disapointment.

I read about this. If I remember correctly, the writer removed the expander stem/ball before sizing, then reinstalled it lower than usual and ran the cases into the die just enough to push them over the ball and open the necks. The necks were expanded by pushing instead of pulling them over the ball, thus reducing stretching.

I suspect if you seated bullets without expanding the necks, the bullets would not be straight and you'd cause more problems than you solve. But I could be wrong. Okie John.

okie john

The reason behind the extra step of running your expander thru after the full lg. size is to keep your neck on center line w/ the body. This only has to be done if your sizing die is pulling your necks off center which will result in excess bullet run out.

This extra step will allow your die to keep things in line with out the purchase of another set.

Try it if you have a problem die it does work.
..............Bob

DON'T TAKE YOUR STEM OUT OF YOUR DIE!! If it was a good idea the die makers would make them that way. If you need to reduce runnout make small 1/8 turns on the expander stem until you have it centered inside your die. I guarantee you will have excellent runnout with virtually any brand.

If you need more explanation let me know but there IS A SWEETSPOT where the sizing ball will be very close to the middle of the die--you just have to size 5 brass and check runnout. If you don't like it give 1/8 turn on the stem and do 5 more. Keep repeating and you will find that sweetspot.

I do remove the expander with my bushing dies. I agree with Eldeguello, why squish the neck down more than necessary, only to stretch it back open again? I think this is done mostly because chambers vary so much and so it's a way to compensate for slop between varying die, brass and chamber dimensions. A little checking with new, fired, sized and seated rounds will tell you a lot about how much the brass is being worked.

Ray, I'm curious as to how the practice could cause a pressure spike that would be problematic? If the bullet will seat, I can't imaginge the "grip" of the neck would exceed a good hard crimp, but obviously this is all conjecture....Maybe we can get Saeed to do a test....

Buffalo Bob,

I'm struggling with the idea the expander serves to align the neck with the body of the case. If the dies/shellholder relationship were that far off, I think that would be a major problem, and that it would be pretty ass backwards to fix that problem through brute force of the expander...a cure that might be worse than the disease....I'd shoot for a square, straight die and accept no less.

I agree overall that this kind of experimentation is for the advanced reloader who has a really good grasp as to what's happen to the brass relative to the chamber dimensions. As Ray said, a chamber cast is a great tool for ALL of the rifles you reload for. For example, you may find that your chamber will allow for a longer trim length than the reloading manual says. SInclair sells a nice little widget called a Chamber Length Guage for 5 bucks that will give you this dimension as well. Again, this is more advanced stuff. For the average person, be safe and trim to what the book says. A neck that is too long can cause a MAJOR pressure problem...

before some of this makes any sense, you have to reload for a while and keep studying those cutaway pictures in the relaoding manuals.....

The expander ball assures each and ever case has the same grip on the bullet. It's nothing but a "uniformer".

Many times I'll buy five hundred cases of the same lot for one gun.

I then resize a case and use a pin gauge to find the inside diameter of the neck. If it's let's say, .239 for a 6mm Remington, it means the expander ball will increase that ID by .002. (you need .002 expansion of the neck when the bullet seats.)

I can lap out the neck (blind hole expandable with diamond paste) of the die by a couple thousanths and do without the expander........until the necks increase in thickness after several shots, then the grip will increase some and pressures will climb a little but usually not enough to notice.

I don't use an expander ball in any rifle caliber I load except the 22K Hornets, but that's because I load for a total of seven K-Hornet rifles and all share the same ammo.

JBelk,

Thank you! I feel honored to have stumbled upon an insight that is supported by your extensive expertise and wisdom! It's as if I've been sprinkled with Holy Water (maybe Butch's Bore Shine would be more apt!)...

i have taken out the decapper/expander pin and use an universal decapping die and a lyman "M" die. depending on the inside diameter of the neck, the expander plug may have to be reduced slightly. i bell the neck slightly to help seat the bullet, as one hand doesn't do fine work. the press is a bonanza co-ax, it makes reloading easy and enjoyable for me.

One method of centering the expander ball that works is to remove the expander stem and slip an o ring over the threaded portion (against the locking nut). When replaced in the die, locate the plug close to, but not in, the neck sizing portion of the die. The o ring will lock the stem in place but allows the stem to center within the tolerances allowed between male/female threads. Polishing the ball w/crocus cloth also reduces runout.

Currently getting zero to .001" runout w/standard Pacific dies in 300 Win Mag. using this method (and a very good batch of WW brass.

Regards,
hm

Okie John,
I read the same article and was interested in trying it. In the article he said something about leaving the stem loose so that the expander ball would self center. Do you remember that part? I haven't purchased a gauge to check for run out yet. Is it worthwhile for hunting loads?

Bob257

Would the lack of expander ball cause differing "crimp" pressures in cases that have been work hardened versus newer/annealed brass?

"Would the lack of expander ball cause differing "crimp" pressures in cases that have been work hardened versus newer/annealed brass? "

If you are sizing the case, it will spring back to slightly larger outside dimensions than the inside dimensions of the die. By the same token, if you are expanding the neck, it will spring back to slightly smaller ID than the ball OD. Brass which has work hardened due to several firings/resizings will "spring back" more than new or annealed brass.

The harder the brass, the more spring back you get.

Regards,
hm

[ 02-12-2003, 03:28: Message edited by: hm1996 ]

I experimented with this last night.

I got a new Redding decapper/expander assembly for the .375 H&H. (Broke the old one trying to get a stuck case out of the die.)

With the old expander, which was always wildly off-center in the die, I got basically zero runout.

With the new one I got about .004" -- enough that it was noticeably harder getting the trimmer pilot started.

I got out a couple more new cases and sized them without the decapper/expander stem. Zero runout. Then I put the stem in just a couple turns and unscrewed the die so it was just held in the press. Popped the case back up over the ball, then down again. Zero runout. You could see the parts of the die move as it all centered itself.

Only PITA will be to swap in an undersized expander ball from another set of dies, to hold in the decapping pin for the first pass on fired cases.

"Only PITA will be to swap in an undersized expander ball from another set of dies, to hold in the decapping pin for the first pass on fired cases."

John:

You might want to experiment with the o-ring
under the expander plug lock. This may allow use of decapping pin w/the 375 expander as it keeps the stem locked yet allows the expander to self center in it's threads. At least that is how it worked in my 300 dies. Have not used it on other dies yet.

Regards,
hm

My 250-3000 sav model 99 will shoot almost in same holes over and over..

back years ago it started to hit not good.Sat and tried and looked could not find problem.

rolled the expander rod accross table and saw it WOBBLE ...Here the expander rod was bent.
New rod and bullets back in same holes.

now 2017 went back loading the 250-3000 after longtime not ..Loaded and shot in same holes ..

Then last 5 loads oh boy VERTICAL stringing ......

Got home and cleaned /inspected those 5 shells and dies etc everything fine.

Went to size the first case ,oh my expander ball fell inside..So those 5 shells were loaded with loose EXPANDER BALL...


VERTICAL stringing problem solved ..

50 years with 250-3000 sav and I know what it can shoot ...Used fingernail polish on threads now on expander ball....

just those 2 problems made my groups bad..bent rod open up groups and loose expander ball caused vertical stringing...

Since this thread has been dredged up from years ago, I will add my two cents. There are two ways to size the neck of a fired case. the common method is to squeeze it down farther than it needs to go (commonly done with a neck or full length sizing die), then withdraw the sizer button which stretches the case neck out to the desired size.
The other method is to have a bushing of specific size that squeezes the neck down to the amount needed for the interior of the neck to be the precise size, so no expander button is needed. This results in the neck having the correct dimensions without the excessive working of the brass. the catch to the method is that the neck thickness must be uniform around the neck and from case to case in order for the method to work.

quote:

Originally posted by Bob257:
Okie John,<br /> I read the same article and was interested in trying it. In the article he said something about leaving the stem loose so that the expander ball would self center. Do you remember that part? I haven't purchased a gauge to check for run out yet. Is it worthwhile for hunting loads?<br /><br />Bob257

The proof of the pie is in the eating. Thus the proof of using no expander ball is in the shooting. What sort of groups are you getting using your current method?
I bought one of the "straight ammo" measuring thingies and it merely verified that my ammo was straight. It sits gathering dust on the shelf. Wanna buy it?

With a bushing die the expander is used if the necks are not turned to a uniform thickness.

At the Whidden custom die website they sell expander kits with five expanders. These expanders are from bullet diameter to .004 under bullet diameter.

Using a expander is not the end of the world like so many reloaders claim. And Forster full length benchrest dies use a high mounted floating expander. The neck of the case is held and centered in the die when the expander enters the case neck. And this prevents the expander from pulling the case neck off center and inducing neck runout.



Below is a Lyman type "M" expander for a .223, and the main part of the expander is .003 smaller than bullet diameter. And the case mouth is bumped on to the second .226 step to aid seating and reduce neck runout.

For my .348 Win RCBS makes a neck expander die for cast bullets. Instead of having to pull the sized case over the plug in the resizing die, which can be very difficult, it expands the neck on the up stroke of the ram and it's much easier. The expander plug in the resizing die is removed. It works just fine with jacketed bullets, too.

Rogerinneb,
When addressing Ray, use Ray A or Ray B, least you ruin my immaculate reputation!

Factory dies don't fit all chambers as stated above in so many words, Factory make different size expander balls for just that reason..If one want a die do fit his chamber then custom dies or modifications are in order..

as a reamer wares, the chamber specs ware to simplify the scenario..

On big bore DG rifles, I usually turn the expander ball enough to get a tight fit on the bullet, then use a case full of powder usually 4831 and get a tad of compaction and use a very light crimp..I never get bullet set back with this method, others use a very hard crimp. Its also a good idea to use the cannalure to crimp in, if possible.sometimes its not and my method has worked for me on slick bullets, even coated bullets..