Well, I took 3 guys from Georgia out prairie dog hunting this weekend and had a little mishap with a couple of cartridges.

I was shooting my 204 Ruger with handloads I made up. Brass was purchased off of Gunbroker.com as once fired Federal brass, which I FL resized, trimmed, etc. I loaded 34 gr MidwayUSA Dogtown bullets behind 26.0 gr of H335 and CCI 450 primers.

Here is what happened out of about 225 rounds fired:





I had 2 rounds come completely apart. There was nothing ordinarily wrong with the shots that I recall. I do remember the first round came apart on round #3 of a 5 round magazine full. The second round came apart on round #5 of a 5 round shot, which would have been the first round placed into the magazine.

I went through my brass and noticed that some had the scaring mark on them, while others didn't.

After doing a little detective work here at the house this evening, I think I've come to the answer of what was causing the scaring of the cases. I thought there might have been something in the chamber and when the bolt was turned into position this is what was causing the scaring. But then I didn't push the cartridge into the magazine housing and there wasn't a scar. Hmmm? So, I then pushed a cartridge into the magazine and dropped the floor plate to find a scar on this cartridge. So, the next step was to fully load the magazine and see what happened. The cases that are being scaring are those in positions #1, 3, and 5. After a bit more 007 work, I found there is a slight rough area on the right edge of the receiver, which I am guessing is what is causing the problem of case scaring.

I think I can solve this problem with getting a little emory cloth and smoothing out the rough edge.

Now, my only hesitation is whether to keep or pitch the brass that shows the scared area.

my questions is... is .204 better than .223 for p dogs?...

my answer is... you sure they were only once fired...

quote:

Originally posted by WiNdTeCh:
my questions is... is .204 better than .223 for p dogs?...

Is the 204 better than the 223 ... depends on several things, I think. I shot both yesterday and killed dogs with both. Measured confirmed kills were 293 with the 223 and 290 with the 204. I think the distances you are shooting would influence this answer. Anything from about 300 inward the 204 will do fine, after 300 I would pick the 223. I would say that on Friday I shot about 50 dogs from the 240 to 290 range with absolute confidence in the round.

I would also say that wind would play a huge roll in your decision on caliber. This weekend in east-central CO was perfect for varmint hunting. Light winds with max being about 8 mph!!

quote:

my answer is... you sure they were only once fired...

I can't say the brass were truly once fired, but they came from a reputable seller on gunbroker with a good track record. I will say that next time I buy brass I may just buy new brass, so that I know how many times they have been fired.

Sure looks like a classic case of seperation due to headspace/oversizing to me.
The brass I believe has been stretched past its limit likely due to having the shoulder pushed back too far once to often. The "lines" on the brass that didn`t seperate are due to "thinning" and will split there soon if not the next firing.

quote:

Originally posted by Ol` Joe:
Sure looks like a classic case of seperation due to headspace/oversizing to me.
The brass I believe has been stretched past its limit likely due to having the shoulder pushed back too far once to often. The "lines" on the brass that didn`t seperate are due to "thinning" and will split there soon if not the next firing.

Then why do I take a piece of brass that doesn't have the scratch/scar on it, place it into the magazine, release the floor plate, and presto there is a scratch/scar on the casing? It wasn't there before I put it in the magazine. The three loaded cartridges in the right of these pictures show exactly what I'm talking about. The scars were not there prior to putting them in the magazine.

Thanks,

Also the scratch/scar doesn't go all the way around. It is only about a 1/4" long and is on the side that touches the receiver when placing it into the magaizne.

I would guess that those cases - if indeed they were 'once fired' - were fired in a dry and rough chamber that prevented the cases from elongating progressively and instead held them until the brass gave way. They are likely all damaged to some degree. Excess headspace would certainly show up a rough chamber.

Well, this is what I think is taking place.

When placing the cartridge into the magazine the rough spot on the receiver is scratching/scaring the case. This is why I only see the scratch on the cases #1, 3, and 5 because they fit into the magazine on the right side of the case in an alternating fashion. Especially now that I found out it isn't there until after placed in to the magazine.

Also, I took some unfired factory ammo and the same scratching/scaring appeared these cases too.

This scar/scratch on the case is what is causing the brass to fail when fired. It is weaking the case causing the separation

I think all of these scars/scratches will disappear once the rough edge on the receiver is attended to. At least, I hope so!!

Thanks,

Graybird,
Take a hacksaw and cut down through one of the brass that has the bright ring length wise. Inside the case you will see a ring also where the brass is about to come apart. Or faster straighten out a paper clip and make a small "L" shaped hook and reach inside the case. You will be able to feel the ring with your hook.
Regards, Keith

That brass is coming apart well above the point where it normally weakens due to head space problems and over sizing weakens the brass.
It does look like the scratch is deep enough to cause a failure. I would me fixing the magazine.

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:
Brass was purchased off of Gunbroker.com as once fired Federal brass, which I FL resized, trimmed, etc.

Graybird, good luck looking for your scarring gremlin. Once you have finished that process, see if you can find some new brass - and don't buy on gunbroker this time... With all due respect, I have a feeling this brass was over represented just slightly in the sales process...

I'll wager a $, that the marks on the case are signs of impending head separations. If the brass was truely once fired, which I somehow doubt, it was fired in a chamber with extremely long head-shoulder dimensions. Much more likely, is that the seller reloaded it and had his sizing die set up incorrectly.

I know you believe in the scratching theory. That is fine, do pursue that idea. It would, IMHO, be extremely unlikely that a scratch would make your cases fail like this. At worst, you might see a failure of the case on one side, but even that sounds far fetched - from a superficial scratch. Besides, notice the mark of the impending head separation does not appear in the same location on each case. I'd say: typical head separation from incorrect sizing or, less likely, from chamber with incorrect headspace.

Pitch the brass, buy new, make sure your dies are set up correctly, live happily ever after.

- mike

Case head separation almost always occurs right where the solid web section ends and will be the same for every case and will not be way up the sides.
The position that the case is in when pushed into the magazine is causing the difference in scratch location. It looks to me to be cutting the brass deep enough to fail.
Brass does not stretch willy-nilly all over the sides.
The reason for separation at the web is because the brass expands to grip the chamber walls but the web or case head can not expand as much so the back of the case will move back to the bolt if there is too much head space, stretching the brass right at the end of the web.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Case head separation almost always occurs right where the solid web section ends and will be the same for every case and will not be way up the sides.

Bfrshooter, I'm sorry to say, that is not correct. I found an 8x64S case recently, which clearly shows an incipient head separation ring further up the case.

- mike

+1 on that. I've had case separations much higher than the juncture of the web and case wall. whereas that is the likely spot all else being equal, I think the condition of the chamber walls has a lot to do with the exact point of failure.

Graybird, in my not so expert opinion, you have two unrelated problems. If that scratch were enough to cause separation, you would have factory ammo or other reloads exhibiting the same behavior. I think you were sold a batch of brass shot from a rifle with a serious headspace problem or reloaded more than once and over-sized. The seller probably figured it out when they started having their own separations and dumped the brass.

Pull a few bullets and check the inside wall with a pick or paperclip and see if there are thin spots inside the cases. But I certainly agree that the rough edge causing the damage must be fixed as well.

quote:

Pull a few bullets and check the inside wall with a pick or paperclip and see if there are thin spots inside the cases. But I certainly agree that the rough edge causing the damage must be fixed as well.

Another vote for incipient case separation. Brass has been over worked. Check w/paper clip and you will feel a ring inside case at the location of the shiny ring.

Regards,
hm

quote:

Case head separation almost always occurs right where the solid web section ends and will be the same for every case and will not be way up the sides.

Agreed. These separations are not the kind you see due to excessive headspace. Something else is going on here. I would experiment with some new cases.

I have seen some of these seperations on a 270win, the brass was used a lot with high pressure loads and the dies were not set right.That said try to remove the rough spot it is not supposed to be there.make sure the dies are set for that rifleand you should be good to go.Check that brass.Good Luck

quote:

Originally posted by Ol` Joe:
Sure looks like a classic case of seperation due to headspace/oversizing to me.
The brass I believe has been stretched past its limit likely due to having the shoulder pushed back too far once to often. The "lines" on the brass that didn`t seperate are due to "thinning" and will split there soon if not the next firing.

listen to what ol joe said.

How many times have you reloaded this brass?

Do all the fired rounds (225) look like the picture or just a few.

I have had spliting up that hi before because I pushed the shoulder to far back.

Now that you have cases fire formed to your chamber neck size them they will be fine if the split is not showing on the inside of the case use a brite lite and the paper clip to tell.

I'd say this is the classic case of incipient separation due to headspace issues and/or improper or excessive resizing. SInce this was purchased as once-fired, you don't know what type of chamber this may have been fired in prior to your using it.

And it may not have even been once-fired...

Soot up an entire cartridge neck shoulder case body un loaded " Carefully " place into the chamber

not the magazine . Close the bolt , now remove it examine the case while carefully extracting it .

Soot another one totally put it into the magazine carefully as possible , cycle it up but eject


it before going into the chamber . What do you observe ?. A magic marker works much better as it dries

so less chance of mistakes .

If you fail to see anything unusual and your able to fire factory ammo and reload it without incident

it's that brass !. However if factory ammo fires but results in failure upon reloading , you have a

chamber problem or a REALLY BAD DIE set up !/ JMO .

Headspace without a doubt.

I've had cases fail just in fron of the web. I have also had them fail just behind the shoulder. What I have seen is a difference between a push feed and CRF failure do to excessive headspace and to much set back.

In my push feed the case went all the way forward sealed and the head was pushed back. In a CRF often the extractor will provide the headspace the the case is stretched forward. Just guessing on my part based on a buddy trying to form some brass for one of my PDK wildcats which has the shoulder forward of factory 280. He tried to use COW and the extractor to headspace. He even had failures on the first firing that blew the shoulder area off. Ones that didn't fail on forming failed the first or second firing in the upper 1/3 of the body.

I have personally only loaded the brass once, which was with these firings.

The brass was advertized as being shot out of a T/C barrel.

I haven't had the chance to do any further 007 work on the brass, but I intend to do so later this evening.

Thanks,

Okay, maybe I am stupid or just can't read.

Graybird is claiming out of approximately 225 round fired, there were two case seperations.

In the rest of his narrative and the pictures, it shows other cases scarred in about the same spot those two cases failed.

Now, if all of this brass was from the same lot, bought as "Once Fired" off GunBroker, then why weren't there more case failures?

If the scarring is occuring as Graybird stated, dependent on the order of being loaded into the magazine, then is it not Possible that the scarring could have something to do with the seperation of the cases?

Is it also Not possible, that if the brass is not once fired, that whatever is causing the scarring is just enough to help cause the cases to fail at that point?

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Okay, maybe I am stupid or just can't read.

Graybird is claiming out of approximately 225 round fired, there were two case seperations.

In the rest of his narrative and the pictures, it shows other cases scarred in about the same spot those two cases failed.

Now, if all of this brass was from the same lot, bought as "Once Fired" off GunBroker, then why weren't there more case failures?

If the scarring is occuring as Graybird stated, dependent on the order of being loaded into the magazine, then is it not Possible that the scarring could have something to do with the seperation of the cases?

Is it also Not possible, that if the brass is not once fired, that whatever is causing the scarring is just enough to help cause the cases to fail at that point?

This is the road of logic I was heading down, and what I was trying to relay in my posts.

This evening I plan on coloring a few cartridges and cycling them as normal, placing them directly in the chamber without placing in the magazine and placement in the magazine only.

Then, I plan on working on the rough spot on the receiver and doing the same thing.

Thanks,

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Graybird is claiming out of approximately 225 round fired, there were two case seperations.

In the rest of his narrative and the pictures, it shows other cases scarred in about the same spot those two cases failed.

Now, if all of this brass was from the same lot, bought as "Once Fired" off GunBroker, then why weren't there more case failures?

There are few absolute truths in reloading, "brass differs" seems to be one of them. In my early days of reloading, I must have adjusted my sizing dies incorrectly, because I got two case head separations - but only two out of a couple of hundred cases. If I had continued to size and fire the brass with that setup, I likely would have gotten more.

The fact there were two case head separations, and likely several incipient separations, is a pretty good indication that there is a problem with brass and/or sizing. The fact there have been no more than two is mere coincidence, or good sense on Graybird's side. If it was me, and I got two case separtions, I would stop until I knew what was going on.

Breaktop guns (e.g. Contenders) have a nasty way of allowing brass to stretch, although normally this is only seen in calibers with larger case heads. Who knows??

Get some new brass, there is plenty .204 brass available. Make sure the dies are set correctly. Problem solved.

- mike

Classic head seperation, worn out cases fired in someone elses rifle, now failing in your firearm.

Just my 2 cents.

Ok, here is what I did. I took some factory Federal 39 gr Blitzkings and some of my reloads and colored the cartridge with a black magic marker.

Then, I ran them thru a series of different senerios.

Here is what happened:



From left to right:
1) Failed cartridge (reload)
2) Failed cartridge (reload)
3) Federal factory load - placed into magazine and floor plate dropped prior to smoothing out rough edge on receiver
4) Federal factory load - placed into magazine and floor plate dropped after smoothing out rough edge
5) Reload - Placed into magazine and cycled thru chamber and ejected prior to smoothing out rough edge
6) Reload - Placed into magazine and floor plate dropped without cycling thru chamber prior to smoothing out rough edge
7) Reload - Placed directly into chamber without placing into magazine and cycled thru chamber prior to smoothing out rough edge
8) Reload - placed into magazine and cylced thru chamber and ejected after smoothing out rough edge on receiver
9) Reload - placed into magazine and floor plate dropped without cycling thru chamber after smoothing out rough edge
10) Reload - placed directly into chamber without placing into magazine and cycled thru chamber after smoothing out rough edge

Notice how the scratch/scar is now gone after smoothing out the rough edge. The scratch/scar is even present with just placing the cartridge into the magazine, as in #3 (factory ammo) and #6 (reload).

So, is this still a headspace or overworked brass senerio? Or, could it be that the rough edge on the receiver was damaging the case enough to allow it to fail upon firing?

Thanks,

For my $.02 I simply find it hard to believe that you are scratching the case deep enough to cause a failure.

ramrod340 wrote: "For my $.02 I simply find it hard to believe that you are scratching the case deep enough to cause a failure."

Those are my sentiments exactly.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
For my $.02 I simply find it hard to believe that you are scratching the case deep enough to cause a failure.

The scratch/scar is definitely deep enough you can feel it with your finger!

The easy way to establish or eliminate headspace/improper sizing problem is to bend a 90* hook on end of a paperclip and run it up and down inside the cases. If you can feel a ring in the case, it will soon separate.

A scratch on outside of the case will not cause separation IMHO.

Regards,
hm

You mention that the scratch doesn't go all the way around and only measures 1/4th inch or so. If this scratch was indeed the cause of the problem, you probably would have seen a rupture along the 1/4th inch scratch and not a case that came completely apart.

Please use the paper clip trick to check the cases. Everything is pointing in the direction of headspace/excessive sizing as the culprit.

If you don't feel comfortable checking it that way or else halving the case to examine it, I'm sure a number of guys would volunteer to do so at no cost to you, myself included.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
ramrod340 wrote: "For my $.02 I simply find it hard to believe that you are scratching the case deep enough to cause a failure."

Those are my sentiments exactly.

Mine also.

quote:

The reason for separation at the web is because the brass expands to grip the chamber walls but the web or case head can not expand as much so the back of the case will move back to the bolt if there is too much head space, stretching the brass right at the end of the web.

I'm with bfrshooter. (And not only because he has the most wonderful 45-70 handgun). If the case grip is excessive, the case will fail at its weakest link. Usually that is where we expect. But if there is some damage to the case, it will fail there. It is not the damage to the case causing the failure but the condition in the chamber! Someone's chamber is not polished! Let me explain - all over the world the Lee Enfield has the reputation for short case life due to flexi-action etc. Not so! Excessive case to chamber wall grip (what I call binding) is the culprit. If that were not so then only Lee Enfields would have that problem but they don't. (My cases are over 25 years old now and still fine - those that I haven't lost!)

OK. Now I'm going to get flamed!Tee Hee!

Here is the latest poop.

While watching a little MMA action on VS this evening, I did the ole paperclip test on some cases.

I examined 74 cases of factory Federal stuff that I had shot myself, so I know these are once-fired. None of these cases showed signs of casehead separation.

I also examined 45 cases of the once-fired brass that I bought off the internet. Of these 45 cases, one certainly had signs of casehead separation, with another being suspect. The other interesting thing was that the areas showing these signs were right at the point where the scratch appeared. Also, on the one case that I know I felt, the separation was only about half way around the case with the midpoint being right at the scratch. These cases are some that I used while working up some test loads; however, after initial inspection I threw them in the same container and have no idea if the suspect cases where from test loads with higher powder charges, which in the end probably doesn't matter.

I guess the safest thing to do would be to just pitch the brass and start over with a new lot.

Thanks and much appreciated!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
If you don't feel comfortable checking it that way or else halving the case to examine it, I'm sure a number of guys would volunteer to do so at no cost to you, myself included.

Bobby,

Thank you for the generous offer!!!

graybird, might I suggest that the problem actually lies in your chamber? Those 'once fired' cases had suffered some stretching due to whatever reason. Your mag adds a scratch which is the beginning of a crack. Some condition exist in your chamber which only needs that weak point to result in case failure. I have had scouring halfway through a case and that did not result in failure. I have also had a weakend case fail in a unusual spot in my rifle's chamber - right were there is a reamer scratch! Un-weakend cases do not fail at this chamber scratch. I have reloaded some of these 'test' cases (being used for testing because of the scouring on them) un-unbelievable number of times. Even cases with insipient head separation have survived numerous reloadings simply because the insipient separation was in the wrong place to cause failure (and these were not light loads by any standard).

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:
Of these 45 cases, one certainly had signs of casehead separation, with another being suspect.
... Also, on the one case that I know I felt, the separation was only about half way around the case ...

Good, so it is established that the cases bought on Gunbroker is the likely culprit. Like I said in my previous note, there is no guarantee all cases would exhibit the problem. It is normal for some cases to only separate part way round the case - sometimes you are lucky and can extract the failed case without resorting to bronze brushes etc.

- mike