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I have never varied seating depth. I have always simply loaded 10/1000 off the lands and then found a powder charge that worked. What has been your experience varying seating depth? Dramatic changes in group size or no? Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | ||
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Hi Mike, Seating depth is usually the last thing I adjust, after I have found the best weight for a given load/combination. Some times my seating depth adjustments make a big difference, some times they don't. The most recent example was yesterday. I tested loads for my 6.5x55. The components were Lapua cases, 130 grain Nosler AccuBond and VV N160. With three powder weights, a 0.05" decrease of the Cartridge Overall Length (COl) improved the group sizes by almost an inch at 100 yards. I haven't seen this much difference before and was also surprised to see an improvement when decreasing COL. I would have thought that the closer the bullet was to the lands, the more accurate the load would be. It was a good reminder for me never to take anything for granted and always test all variables. Cheers, Christian | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre: I have never varied seating depth. I have always simply loaded 10/1000 off the lands and then found a powder charge that worked. Really? roger Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Roger, Yes, really. Is there something silly about my post I should know? Please enlighten me oh wise one. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Seating depth will change velocity, extreme spread of velocities and standard deviation of velocities If you have a decent shooting rifle that will not effect your group size much but you can find a node that is the most stabile. That way you can reduce flyers and your drop spread will be less at distance. ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
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I have been reloading centre fire ammo for about 17 years and for about 8 or 10 calibers and less than 25 HUNTING rifles. In the early years I tried all the tricks from the books and magazine articles. I slowly found the priority that worked for me - the bullet is the key. If a particular projectile gives 3" groups in the first random load, it is unlikely to become a 1" shooter. If the first group is 1.5" to 2" then I look at changing brass, powders & then fine tuning loads. Regarding seating depth I did find that seating bullets very close improved accuracy in some instances but it caused other problems in the field. Finally I got a scare with Barnes X (old first model) where pressures spiked like a volcano. So I started seating all bullets 30 thou off lands and X bullets at 50 thou. All my rilfes are good shooters and some will even do under 2" groups (5 shots) at 200 meters. All of them are loaded with bullet seated 30 thou off lands. John Barsness did an article on this subject in Handloader magazine about 6 or more years ago. I found that article very enlightening. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Woods, Ya know I just got into reloading a year back. I reload 6.8, 338 fed in AR's that I hunt with. Also reload 7 mag and 30-378 mag Weatherby. So I started out seating depth from factory specs (70/1000's) to 15/1000's off. After close to 100 reloads, I also couldn't find a rhyme or reason to my groups and was quite befuddled; none were really way out there but none were much better than the rest outta the Weatherby; ended up going with 20/1000's off and killed a bunch of caribou, several moose and bear with the reloads last fall. I finally got a chrono over the winter and plan on seeking more insight to why I have spent so much money on reloading gages & equipment that seemingly don't improve my groups, ha ha. I'm glad I saw your post. | |||
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But this is kinda useless if you shoot a Weatherby with factory freebore. Can never touch the lands or anywhere near and still cycle through magazine, right? Just wondering.. | |||
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I did pretty much the same with a rem 700 in 7 mag. The groups weren't much different which led me to question how much bullet seating depth changes anything for me. Too many you guys on this site argue back and forth. I'm just trying to improve my ammo by reloading and quite the novice. When I did have barnes X bullets like 50/1000s out further than Weatherby factory shells, they still fit in magazine. Bottom line, 4 moose, bunch of caribou, 6 blk bear and one grizz were killed by family members with those two guns and bullet seating depth wouldn't have made a difference. When I saw Wood's picture, I thought, there ya go, looked just like mine. | |||
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I use the same starting point with all rifles .025 off except with Barnes .050 settle on a powder primer charge that shows accuracy to start with while checking FPS then I move the bullet in or out to see if I can tweek the load if needed. I shoot a lot of Nosler bullets and find that if a gun can't shoot Nosler to start with it usully won't shoot there are a few exceptions but not many. Right now i'm trying to get 160gr Barnes TTSX to shoot in my 338WM I finely put a good 4 shot group 3/4" @ 100 using IMR4350 and i'm .070 off | |||
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FWIW, I look at varying the bullet jump as a means to fine tune an already good load. I've had it help slightly and again not at all. I've never experienced a bullet jump adjustment that would change a spray and pray load into a one-holer like I've read about in here. YMMV Aim for the exit hole | |||
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I used to play with jump. I never found enough gain to worry about it. So I spend my bulletrs powder and time on other things. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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Sometimes you can change a variable like the seating depth and think you have found the load. You can repeat the experiment the next time at the range and often get dompletely different results. | |||
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I’ve played with bullet jump and its effect on barrel timing. It makes a difference. “Woods” shows you some of the same results I’ve had. If barrel timing (vibration timing) is not important why do we worry about free floating barrels? Barrel timing is an interesting study. | |||
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My post wasn't meant as a flame or any derogatory blast. My surprise stems from the fact that many of my rifles' throats will not allow seating of light for caliber bullets to be seated any where near the rifling. Sorry if I came across as a possible slam intended. However , Thanks for the compliment. roger Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Here's a group that I shot with my 284 win that I cut WAY too long a throat. I must say that I am VERY suprised because I have repeated this goup as I thought it must be a fluke. I will shoot that load over a chrony wednesday & find out what the velocity is. Any predictions? Doug Humbarger NRA Life member Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club 72'73. Yankee Station Try to look unimportant. Your enemy might be low on ammo. | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by D Humbarger: Here's a group that I shot with my 284 win that I cut WAY too long a throat. I must say that I am VERY suprised because I have repeated this goup as I thought it must be a fluke. I will shoot that load over a chrony wednesday & find out what the velocity is. Any predictions?[/QUOTE It'll do just fine. roger Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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2800 fps You will lose a lot of velocity from seating so far from the lands ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
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Roger, I didn't take it as a flame...I just assumed you thought I said something stupid which is a common occurrence for me. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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My guess would be around 2700 to 2800 fps with that Re15 load. You should get 3000+ fps with 4530, N160, Re 19. I would stick to the same bullet as my experience is that any bullet that shoots a good group with one load will often do well with other powders as well - USUALLY
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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There are a few things to point out from woods very useful photo. First, the load at .045" off the lands had the second best ES and SD, yet was the least accurate of 6 loads. Second, as the bullet was seated deeper in the case, velocity (and therefore pressure) decreased with each and every increment. Third, the velocity difference between the .015" and the .090" off loads was only 53 fps, certainly not enough to make a difference on game. I always try to start .015" off the lands, and when a max powder charge is found, seat deeper until the magic accuracy is found. Pressure will always be less than max with this system. | |||
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Exactly And I would add that the usefulness of getting data on the velocity of each load is to find the least ES and SD. IMO this accomplishes what the Audette and OCW methods are striving to do and that is to find the load where minor variations in load or climatic conditions will stand the least chance of having a major effect on POI and trajectory. ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
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