We all know that most rifles prefer some load combinations over others. That is, they shoot smaller groups with some loads than with others...

As a hunter, I hope to not have to shoot groups of shots to get my game, so that leads me to some questions I haven't seen answered on the forums here:

1. Are there some loads that produce more consistent first round accuracy from a cold barrel than other loads do?

2. Is that true with some rifles, most rifles, or all rifles?

3. Does anyone out there load primarily for first round accuracy rather than group accuracy?

4. Have you developed any special approaches or techniques for finding/building such loads?

Interesting question. I never tested in that regard. I test for the 1st two at the same POI. Like you or someone posted earlier, those are the only ones that count for me, the third fourth or fifth would be Hail-Mary shots anyway.

I never had a load that I liked that switched POI on me, always something with the equipment or a major variation in powder lots.

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1. Are there some loads that produce more consistent first round accuracy from a cold barrel than other loads do?

There are for me.

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2. Is that true with some rifles, most rifles, or all rifles?

I'm going with "all", because of the next two answers.

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3. Does anyone out there load primarily for first round accuracy rather than group accuracy?

Yes, but after establishing the best 2-3 shot group accuracy.

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4. Have you developed any special approaches or techniques for finding/building such loads?

This will be a bit easier to understand if I go through a "short version" of what I do.

I Match Prep the cases and initially Benchmark the rifle with either MatchKings or B-Tips to determine what the rifle is actually capable of. I prefer to use the never improved upon Creighton Audette Method to determine where the harmonics are located.

Then I go to 3-shot groups to verify the Harmonics and begin establishing some confidence in the Load with Hunting Bullets. May go to 2-shot groups on the next Range trip if anything strange happened, or just want more confidence in the Load. Clean the barrel and re-prep after "each group".

I really prefer "Cumulative 1-shot Groups" to know for sure where the first shot is going. This is quite time consuming, because I clean the barrel after each shot, re-prep it with a Moly grease and run a dry Paper Patch through it to remove any excess and wait for the barrel temperature to reach the ambient conditions. I want the barrel as close to exactly alike from shot to shot as possible.

Once I'm happy with that, then the "Distance Shooting" begins to develop the Drop Chart and to try and stay in practice with "Yanking" at the correct time.

The focus of my process is to find the best harmonic for the Case/Primer/Powder/Bullet combination and then develop confidence in knowing it will go where I want it to go.

Hot Cor,

Positive goals with consistent methodology.
My compliments.

Hi, Hot Core - Glad to see you respond. You are one of the AR members whose insights I always respect.

What I have been thinking of trying as a technique is this........

1. Take three or four of my best grouping loads for any given one of my rifles to the range with me every Sunday for 5 weeks.

2. Take 3 or 4 targets with me, too.

3. Each week, fire one shot from each load, on the same target I fired that load at the week before, shooting from the bench to minimize human error. (Clean and let the rifle cool completely between each shot, so that shot does not influence the one which will come after it.)

Would try not to shoot the loads in any particular order when I took them each week, too.

4. At end of 5 weeks, should have 3 or 4 targets of 5-shot groups, all made 1 shot per week. That should mitigate the different environmental factors of that time of the year, which might otherwise affect the targets if they were all fired the same day.

5. Measure and record the results.

Obviously, this process would make the "fun" of each range day pretty minimal if it is all I do each of those days. So, would take some other rifle with me for my normal offhand practice session, along with anything I wanted to spend some time testing for normal "group" load developing.

Does that sound like a "reasoned" approach? What have I forgotten?

Hey SD Shooter, Thank you.
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Hey AC, That should work just fine for you as long as you can keep everything on the "correct"target.

And taking additional rifles to plink around from Off-Hand is worth a trip if nothing else gets done. I have a few 22rimfires, but enjoy shooting a S&S Marlin M880SS the most. One of the best things about them is the Triggers are relatively easy to polish. And you can remove the factory Trigger Spring and replace it with one out of a Ball Point pen that has had a few coils cut off. Really ended up with a slick Trigger on mine.

Also have an old(El Passo) Weaver Scope on it with the Range Finder Reticle. Two thin horizontal wires which a 6" object will fit between at 100yds on 9x. Just happens that a lot of 22LR ammo sighted in close to dead on at 25yds(the top wire) will be pretty much dead on at 100yds(bottom wire). Rolling cans Off-Hand with it lets you know if your concentration is on or not.

Kind of expected more responses. Maybe everyone else has quit shooting.

Thanks, Hot Core -

I expected more, too, but I suspect most shooters these days either don't have the time to test for 1st-shot accuracy, never thought about such testing, or don't see a need for it for the shooting they do. It is, after all, a lot easier (and for many, more fun) to shoot for groups when they don't have to worry about exactly where the groups land on the target. I suspect that's one contributor to why "group" shooting is a lot more popular in benchrest competion than Varmint-for-Score.

Nothing wrong with any of those reasons,but it does seem too bad, as more shooters are hunters than small group competitive shooters.

Still, most hunting other than varmint shooting doesn't really require that the shot be exact...just "close enough".

Take care, and Merry Christmas to you.

I've tried shooting groups one shot at a time on the same day. My personal experience has been that even though this IS precisely the accuracy which we all strive to achieve with our rifles, it is very difficult for the shooter to get in the same position/etc. In other words the fliers you tend to get on your third, fourth, fifth etc shots when you shoot a string for a group are more likely to occur when doing one shot at a time, with a significant time interval in between.

Even though I like to shoot groups. I ALWAYS keep a mental image of where the first POI is. AND I WILL ADJUST said rifle accordingly if I think it is not where it should be regardless of group size.

I've found that while some rifles will change POI from the first shot to second, the type of groups shot will remain the same and so will the first shot/cold POI.

I strive for loads with as little chronod velocity deviations as possible. I believe that
is key to barrel harmonics. Working strictly on measuring group size can be somewhat misleading due to shooter error.

In that light, I'm a weight rather than volume guy (I don't want to start that argument- weight has been good to me). I dispense my charges with an RCBS gizmo and then reweigh my charges on a jewelers scale, sensitive to +/- .01 gr. I have a pair of tweezers and add/subtract one kernel of powder to get the charges exact. Anal, yes, necessary, probably not, who gives a shit I like doing it and get good results.

I do not neck turn, but strictly neck size Redding "S"caliber-.002in. I've not found the .01 off the lands to be dogma, it has helped, but not necessarily so, this (bullet seating)has usually been the last variable to tweak.

The bottom line for me is I want a rifle to shoot good groups/be accurate (under 1/2in) but I always check/adjust the POI before hunting season and frequently during hunting season. And NO I really haven't found a specific way to accurately check first shot POI.

That's what I do.I enjoy it.

My experience has been the bore condition due to lube/perservative left after last cleaning has significantly more influence than a cold versus warm barrel. I always leave the barrel fouled after sighting-in but of course the disadvantage is the barrel is then susceptible to rusting.

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Originally posted by unique:
...I always leave the barrel fouled after sighting-in but of course the disadvantage is the barrel is then susceptible to rusting.

Hey Unique, That is a problem here in the Southeastern USA for sure.

Had a buddy show me a rifle he had been given by a lady who's husband had died. The guy had always taken extremely good care of all his firearms, so it was a bit surprising. Apparently he had gone out and shot the rifle a bit and on the way home felt a bit funny. They took him to the hospital and everything was fine, or so it seemed. The rifle stayed in the back of his in a gun case, inside his Bronco/Blazer, in his garage for about 6 weeks before they thought about it. By then the pits were well defined both inside and outside.

Since I hunt with a clean and Moly Lubed Bore, that is why knowing where the shots from a barrel in that condition will go is what interests me. After Lubing the barrel with the Moly, I do make a few passes with clean-dry paper patches to remove any "excess" Lube.

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I have a pair of tweezers and add/subtract one kernel of powder to get the charges exact.

Hey FMC, I use a Trickler to get the Powder weight just where I want it and understand where you are coming from. I occasionally need to dump a few grains back into the Trickler from the Scale Pan and re-trickle to get it where I want it.

Same with a whole lot of the Case Prep stuff I do which could easily be argued it isn't necessary. But, it is my time to use or waste as I see fit and if I choose to do it Deburring Flash Holes, Weight Sorting Cases or Polishing the Casemouth with 0000SteelWool, then that is what I'll do. Just seems to build confidence in the Final Load for me.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
...I expected more, too, but I suspect most shooters these days either don't have the time to test for 1st-shot accuracy, never thought about such testing, or don't see a need for it for the shooting they do. It is, after all, a lot easier (and for many, more fun) to shoot for groups when they don't have to worry about exactly where the groups land on the target. I suspect that's one contributor to why "group" shooting is a lot more popular in benchrest competion than Varmint-for-Score.

Nothing wrong with any of those reasons,but it does seem too bad, as more shooters are hunters than small group competitive shooters.

Still, most hunting other than varmint shooting doesn't really require that the shot be exact...just "close enough".

Hey AC, Gotta agree with those thoughts. The "Cumulative 1-shot Groups" do indeed take awhile.

Once I have confidence in that Load, I do enjoy plinking with it at whatever seems to be a worthwhile target. No rush, just walking around looking for "random distance" opportunities.

quote:

Take care, and Merry Christmas to you.

And a Merry Christmas to you as well.

HC

I'm lazy/don't have as much time to screw with cases. As such I try to buy "allegedly" the most consistent brass. RWS, Lapua and Norma, in that order.I don't weigh them. I'm not as anal with case prep.

I've found RWS has given me the best loaded shells with respect to concentricity.

One other thing. I only use match grade primers (Federals). I've found they keep the variance down....don't know if it's a fluke or not, but it's one of my superstitions.