Jeff: I found this quote from you on a posting entitled "RE: How can I stop this rust in my moly barrel?"

"motor oil has MANY problems for this application...
1: contains sulpher and compounds, which form acids
2: is hydrophylic, that means, it will absorb water and hold it... nothing rusts like the edge of soemthing oiled with motor oil
3: parafins, especially if cheap oil, could cause a buildup
4: contains nitrogen, and compounds, forms acids
5: DIRECT CONTAINS SULPHERIC ACID, as used in all clarification process of petrol(so does gas, go figure)
6: will lead to pitting over time (my father-in-law ruined a WW2 pickup samarai sword)
7: the problems are not circumvented using synthetic oils... SHOULD be, but the cost is higher"

This is a little off the normal subject line of this forum, but this is the only place where I have ever seen this information, and I would appreciate your (and anyone else's) comments.

Like others have mentioned, I drive old cars so that I can afford to buy a few guns . I have rust on the inside of the rocker panel that probably resulted from a small place on the fender that was rusted through. Because of the fender not being perfectly sealed to the atmosphere, I would imagine that heating and cooling would allow moisture to collect on the inside of the panel. I previously tried to prevent the internal rust by tapping the fender skirt with a couple of grease fittings and injecting a tube or two of grease, thinking that it would migrate inside, but it didn't work. I was thinking of drilling a hole (or holes) into the fender skirt and squirting in some Kroil ("the oil that creeps" see where I'm going?) and sealing the hole back up (I recently purchased a gallon). Would ATF work as well or better? Have any other suggestions?

Maybe you could also shed some light on something else that I have wondered about. To prevent rust on his truck, he would spray used motor oil up under the fenders and then drive on a dusty dirt road to build up a layer of oil-impregnated dirt. It seemed to work! What I am curious about is that he said that used motor oil would prevent rust better than new motor oil. I had always doubted that until I saw your above statement about motor oil not preventing rust. Is there anything to this?

I would appreciate yours and anyone else's comments. Thanks, Brady

Motor oils made to the regular API specifications contain R&O (rust and oxidation) additives and will resist rust as well as most any other oil.

There is a product called "Extend" made for stopping rust. It's a liquid that dries to a solid coating. It's available in most stores in a bottle or spray. That's what to use for your rocker panels.

Use gun oil on guns, the one exception is Transmission oil and its the purest of oils but for lubrication only...

Most Crude Oil as it comes out of the ground or bottom of the ocean Contains sulfur with exception of Pennsylvania crude�s which came out of the ground dang near good enough to pour straight in your car. Sulfur is knocked out of crude in an SRU unit (sulfur plant), sulfur is then sold.

Some lubricants are paraffin based, some are naphtha based and it really doesn�t matter.

Hydrofluoric and Sulfuric acids are only used in Alkalation processes (H2S units) which are typically gasoline related processes, not lubricant processes. I doubt if motor oil has H2S or sulfuric acids, they are very corrosive and would eat a car engine up.

Higher grade motor oil is typically very low sulfur; sulfur is knocked out early in the processing phase.

Basic light weight oils like some gun oils, 3 n 1 and sewing machine oil etc are gas oil cuts higher up the tower than where heavier lubricants are cut from, with C3 �C4 over the top (gas). Light ends over the top, heavy stuff goes out the bottom.

Bottom line, there is not much difference between non detergent motor oil and some light weight oils sold as gun oil, Sewing machine oil etc. except the weight.. The problem with most motor oil as gun oil are the additives (detergents). 5wt � 10wt non detergent motor oil if you could find any should make decent gun oil although not as good as some of the upper end gun oils like breakfree etc. which have Teflon etc.

Transmission fluid is nothing special, my guess 5 -10wt non detergent oil and red dye. It doesn�t cost enough to be special, cheaper than most motor lubricants because it doesn�t have all the additives necessary to keep a motor clean.

About the only oil that is considered moisture free is transformer oil used in electrical transformers, but it would be to expensive.

I�ve made my living inside an oil refinery or chemical plant all my working life and the processes and controls are complex, the stuff you put in them and get out typically are not.

I believe DEXRON III MERCON (transmisssion fluid) is synthetic. I have been using it on my guns but don't care for it and am switching back to Rem Oil.

On the texas gulf coast it used to be common practice to take a new car and a quirt can of 30wt motor oil and squirt it between the chrome, window trim etc to keep the rust down.

I've been oiling my guns with light wt non detergent motor oil and cheap trasmission fluid for a long time. I also mix 10wt oil, Reslon top cyl lubricant and STP, cheap and it works for me. Guns will rust in Corpus Christi Texas if you aint careful.

Ed's Red is made with transmission fluid and I haven't heard of anyone having rust problems when they use it.



One simple principle to remember, oil and water don't mix. Therefore, oil isn't hygroscopic.



If you get enough water in your oil, from a blown head gasket or such, the oil turns milky. It makes an emulsion, but it doesn't mix.



I grew up on the Gulf Coast of Texas (Freeport) and oiled my guns frequently with 30 wt motor oil. Never had one rust! I still have a 1965 Mod 600 Rem, Parker VH, M1917 Enfield custom, 1968 870 Rem and a 1934 Central Arms .410 that were on the coast during that time. No rust on any of them.

2nd to what Savage 99 said about Extend.
I've used it on salt water boats, 3 wheelers that spent every fall in salt marshes and rusty cars.
It works great and you can paint it if necessary.It turns black when bonding with rust.

Covey16

Most of the compounds that turn rust black are a form of phosphoric acid. The resulting compound is iron phosphate. Years ago we used a product called "Ospho" that was painted on rust to form a gray-black surface.

I bought a new 1972 Chev pickup that I had treated with a thick grease-like substance for rust prevention. They used a spray nozzle, with the truck up on a grease rack, to apply it.

There was a process being sold where they drilled holes in the rocker panels and such to spray a thicked oil product. I think it was called something like "Z-Bar", but it's hard to remember 30+ years ago!

Billy is talking about cracking towers.. which is a fractional distillation column, and that tech ROCKS...

I used to work in the world's largest HS2 regen and vrigin acid plant (in houston, of course)...

synthetic oil is an interesting and worthless application of organic chemistry.. change your oil every 3000 and you have better results TODAY.


hydropillic oils (motor oil is one) will attract water and hold it UNDER it... under motor oil is ON the metal...

you call, but 3-n-1 and remoil are about the only things that will touch my guns.. and tranny fluid SMELLS

jeffe

Ray,

Hate to break it to you, but there ain't ANY transmission oil that is ANYWHERE near "pure" oil! Transmission lubricants tend to be the MOST additive intensive lubricants on the market.

ASS_CLOWN

I'm not an oil expert Jeffe, and I usually agree with you on most things, but I have to say that synthetic engine oil makes those -40 degree startups a whole lot easier. - Dan

ASS CLOWN,
That's just more of your BS, sometimes I wonder what planet you live on my man..... H.P. White labs disagrees and so does Jack Belk, and some of the above posts seem to back this up......

But I could care less one way or the other, I use gun oil on guns for the most part.....

I posted around the internet, when motor oil gave no protection from "red bore" after a shooting session started with a generous burnishing of Moly bore cream.



I was told:

Quote:

---

You're getting sulfate residue in the bore from the thermal disassociation and partial combustion of the MoS2 when firing. The moisture in the air combines with that to form sulfuric acid (h2so4, battery acid). That's corroding your bore.

---

Since then I carry baking soda and water, to flush the bore. Then it stays nice a shinny, under the motor oil.



--

A society that teaches evolution as fact will breed a generation of atheists that will destroy the society. It is Darwinian.

I have worked for a major motor manufacturer for over 20 yrs. Motor Oils have a spike for anti-corrosion, usually from the calcium sulfonate in the DI (driveability Index) additive. It also has a Viscosity Modifier (the milti vis component) which is a disolved rubber, an anti-wear component usually DB-PC and some anti-oxidants and misc. other components (ph buffers etc.). That said, it's good for an engine, it would work on a gun but there are better choices.

There is probably not much more sulfur in motor oil than in most gun oils, though some refinery process used to process lube stocks can produce zero sulfur. Still the type of sulfur compounds remaining in lube stocks (usually <500 ppm) realy wouldn't contribute much to corrosion. Most lubes initially prevent corrosion by forming a barrier (film) to air / moisture. It's the additive that's in the oil that bumps up their anti-corrosion properties.

ATF's are bit diffrent than motor oils in that they have some diffrent additives, friction modifiers and anti-oxidents and a bit of dye. Most are made from the same lubricant base stocks that are used to blend your 5W30. Yes, of some of todays long life oils & ATF's are moving toward Synthetics or what we call in the industry G-III & IV base oils.

As for syn. vs mineral oils in your engine, if you operate your car in normal operating conditions and change per the mfg. requirements you shouldn't have any problems with mineral based oils. Normal operating does allow for off road and heavy duty use, hot & cold. You can find all kind of good info on oil grades / viscosities temps & recomendations in your owners manual.

You can use motor oil on your guns if you must, it shouldn't hurt any thing but as noted above most gun oils use a light vis. oil in an R&O (rust & oxidation) additive and that makes more sense. I would recomend you to use what is recomended for the application, that's why they call it "motor" oil.

Scout Master 54

Ray,

Please post your H.P. White Labs report on the transmission lube you are talking about. By the way, what kind of a report / test did H.P. White perform? You are mighty free with that BS term, particularly when you have no idea what the heck you are talking about! By the way, I am NOT the only guy on this thread that has stated you are wrong about transmission oil. Don't give me the same old, "I cannot post it cause I am not computer literate crap". I have seen your website, so obviously someone knows how to post pictures Ray. Let's see the H.P. White lab report, test procedure, etc, or I think the one who is BSing has the initials RA and not AC.

I can post multiple lube reports, from motor oil, through transmission lubes, axle lubes, maybe even some hydraulic lubes. Might even have some friction modifier reports laying around here.

For whatever it is worth, I have coated crankshafts, camshafts, engine blocks, transmission input/output shafts, axles shafts, gears, and connecting rods with motor oil and wrapped them in rags and they have set for YEARS in a garage WITHOUT rusting! Maybe I just have been lucky. I would NOT however use this approach for guns.

ASS_CLOWN

Ray,

Here is a lubricant test report. There are three different lubes on this report. For extra credit you can tell me which is what (I'll give you a hint as it is a trick question sorta, ONE IS A MOTOR OIL the other two are "gear" oils) . The iron, and chromium contents are due to the fact these samples were used, these elements do not exist in the fresh lube.



Testing represented in the report:
viscosity, acid number (indicator of oxidation level), infrared & elemental analysis.

The elements basically tell you what is in the "additive" package which is ADDED to the base lubricant.

I am still waiting on that H.P. White lab report showing NONE of these elemental traces which I have NOW shown!

ASS_CLOWN

Dan,
heh.. you know, that -40 degrees is FAR outside my texas experience!!

lmao

jeffe

Ray & ALL,



To, hopefully shed some more light on this subject here are some descriptive data on what types of additives are placed in your oils.







Continuing:







Most (actually all lubricant suppliers I know of) oil suppliers only produce the base oil. They (or the additive manufacturer) then blend in an additive package. The additive package is "where the money" is. So when you buy a cheap oil you are buying an oil which has a "cheaper" additive package in it. ALL oil have some type of additive package.



I would NEVER put an oil on a gun which contained either ACTIVE FRICTION MODIFIERS or ACTIVE EXTREME PRESSURE (EP) ADDITIVES. ALL transimission and gear lubes contain friction modifiers and in some cases EP (extreme pressure) additives.



If you want to learn more I strongly recommend contacting Lubrizol Corporation, they are a world leader in oil additive(s) & additive packages. I believe their website is www.lubrizol.com.



I hope this topic has now been severely beaten to death.



ASS_CLOWN

Ray,

I am still waiting on that data from H.P. White. I really cannot wait to see this data you have which proves I am BSing! Funny how quiet you have become since my last couple of posts.

ASS_CLOWN

AC,

The second sample is the motor oil. It's easy to tell by the viscosity index, elevated iron content, elevated aluminum content and elevated magnesium content. It probably came out of a Ford, where they used chrome rings, that wear the cylinders more than cast iron or moly filled rings. Magnesium and aluminum from piston wear. Sulfur content added for anti-wear, much like high sulfur diesel fuel has a cushioning effect similar to tetraethyl lead.

What is glaringly absent is the water content, but it may be totally absent depending on the usage of the engine, i.e. stationary engine vs short haul.

I also find the absence of moly to be unusual, since most motor oils have some moly and motorcycle oil has even more.

It would have been much more informative if a base sample of unused oil had been provided to make a comparison with. Otherwise, one never knows what is an additive and what is due to wear.

Most people don't use used oil to lubricate/preserve guns.

This is like FOX News, "We report, you decide."

There are 100 gun forums with dumb people arguing, but here at AR, we have smart people arguing.

I must remember, "Einstein got his girl friend pregnant."

After being out camping with a Cub Scout troop for the last 34 days, I return and I have to rate this post as one of the dumbest ones I have seen on here.

I have to agree with Ray Atkinson's simple analogy, use Gun Oil on guns.

As far as Jeff indicating Synthetic oils are a waste of organic chemistry, I have to admit to disagree with that statement.
Like Dan Belisle, It sure makes cranking an engine up at 40 below a lot less of a chore.

As far as it not working better in engines. Well, after running a batch of engines on it some very high miles, up to 350 K and 430K on two engines, one the car was dead from rust but the engine was still very strong and the other I just had it rebuilt and put in back into my 4 Runner which now has 464K on the frame and 34K on the rebuilt engine.

I bought a used 1988 Honda Prelude off of a lady who was going into a Nursing home, via her grandson ( in his 30s). She owned the car since new and had kept it up to dealer maintenance pretty well., Since I got it cheap and it only had 118K on it, I have decided to do a little test on it.

The motor had not had an oil change in two years when I got it and it had only about 4,000 miles on it at the time. However it was 2 yrs old and was also Pennzoil ( ugggh).
Took the Value cover off and there was varnish and sludge in the head. Well, I put a new Fram filter on it, and loaded it up with 4 quarts of 0W 40 Mobil One, European Formula.

Changing the filter every 5,000 miles, I ran the car 32,000 miles without an oil change over a 15 month period. At 150,000 miles I took the valve cover off to inspect it. NOT only was the sludge and varnish gone, but the head was very very clean! I just added when the car needed adding and at the filter change. IN 32,000 miles, I added 4 quarts total.
This includes a half a quart at filter change.

If I got 10,000 miles out of the car I was more than ahead, so I was not worried about it. I have tried other synthetics and they did not perform for long drail the way Mobil ONE did, but Mobil ONE sure works. IN fact, in my motor with 430,000 miles on it before rebuilt, It had Delvac ONE 5w40 most of its life with filter changes every 5k and oil changes every 20K.
This engine had no comsumption to speak of ( maybe a quart every 20K) and the inside was clean as a whistle when it was torn down. She was just starting to get tired.

So I don't know if Synthetics are a futile lesson in organic chem, but it sure does perform with the Mobil name on the out side.

Cheers, Good shooting, and Long Motor Life
seafire

Zie Bart Paul.

After 15 yrs in Minnesota, I can tell you that product works as advertised, but nothing can prevent a car from eventually dying in a state like Minnesota from Salt Rust.

cheers
seafire

AssClown:

Even tho tranny fluid is simple, it does not have to be full of additives. Even tho they don't use good old Ford Type F anymore, it did not have much additives in it at all.

Dextron II and III I am sure have a lot more additives. Mercron is just Ford can't have anything made by GM so they have to produce the same thing with their name on it.

However, I have seen this done a lot in Minnesota and the Dakotas out in the farm areas. Plain old simple tractor hydrolic fluid being put into Automatic Trannies. I thought they were nuts the first time I saw it done, but they seem to run just fine on it,, for a long time. Definitely no additives in that stuff. Old farmers will also tell you when an automatic tranny is getting tired and leaking, good old 30 wt non detergent will work just fine, until the weather gets cold in the places it does get cold in.

Guys like Ray growing up in Idaho using things like farmers have for years, and years, I tend to believe them a lot more than I do modern advertisements.

I use synthetic oil, myself, in my vehicles, and dextron. However I have seen other stuff like that work just fine. Another old farmer thing I have seen in the Dakotas and Minnesota, is left over from what farmers did before antifreeze came into existance. Instead of Water and having to drain it out every night, they just used kerosene in the radiator.

My father in law is almost 80 and he still runs kerosene in his car's radiator , and NON detergent motor oil. YOU can't argue with the results as he has run many a car since i have known him well over 200K.
Go figure.

Cheers and Good driving,
lol, seafire

Paul,



You are correct, oil #2 was a motor oil, a synthetic too I might add.



Seafire, I don't do advertisements. An automatic transmission is a simple hydraulic machine, it would theoretically work if filled with water. The additives are placed in the oil (and believe me Ford's Type F ATF has plenty of additives (that is one reason it ain't no more it cost too much) in it as to MOST hydraulic oils) to improve CLUTCH performance and life, among other things. Non detergent SAE 30 is NOT straight oil either, but it is far closer than most modern engine oils. I have rebuild probably 20 engines that have been run on non-detergent oils, which you seem to think are so very great, can you say sludge? Even though the oil was changed every 3000 - 3500 miles the sludge accumulation was heavy, in some cases over an inch thick! That is the reason for the addition of detergents, they keep the "dirt" from depositing all of the inside of the engine, transmission, hydraulic pump, cylinder, axle, etc.



Believe what fairy tales you guys want. The truth is I was NOT BSing, some guy with the initials RA was. Go figure.



ASS_CLOWN

I have never tried "Moley".
Have you tried "Ed's Red"?
Ed's Red is an old WWII cleaning mixture that has been updated: Equal parts of:
Varsol [Oil Based Paint Thinner]
K-1 Kerosene
Dextron 2 or 3
Use your search engine and key on Ed's Red.

AC,

Well, water would work if the clutches weren't stuck together with a glue that comes apart in water.

You are right about ND oil leaving vast amounts of sludge. The only thing I use it for is as a "break in" oil after a new set of rings. Less anti-scuffs/anti-frictions to keep the rings from seating. It's only rated SA, so it can't stay in an engine very long here in Texas.

Even lawnmower engines recommend better grades of oil than ND! Briggs & Scrapiron recommends HD oil at a minimum.

BTW, there's an outfit in Kenner, LA that does oil analysis, mostly for fleet type vehicles, but they will do an analysis on any sample you send them.

Whew! Lots of opinions about motor oil and ATF. Try Prolix for your firearms (available through ProChemCo; 1-800-248-LUBE). After you use it, you won't ever return to the stuff you were using.

Believe it or not, we once had a customer write us and she told us that our 10W-40 worked as well as her favorite sun tanning oil!

I'll bet it kept away the mosquitos and people, though she probably slipped in and out of tight places.

Scout Master 54