First of all let me say I'm a newbie. I'm using speer, hornady, and nosler manuals. From what I've seen so far they never match on the max load using the same powder. I know there alot of variations case, bullet type and so on. What I have seen so far is my velocity never seems to get to what the manuals say they will using max loads. I always start low and work up to max checking the cases as I fire for signs of over pressure. I don't have a software for internal ballistics (yet), but at max loads I see no sign of over pressure. Using water to measure case capacity and taking 90% of that the manuals max load are always below this. This is in several different calibers.
My question is: are the manuals always stating max loads on the low side to protect themselves?
Can I saftely load above manuals stated max loads and never go above 90% case capacity?
Any comments appreciated

The short answer is, maybe. Load data is not a recipe and should not be treated as such. It is merely a set of guidelines. Find out what is Max in "YOUR" rifle and stay below that.

Why the limit on 90% case capacity??

Assuming you're in America, this a free country and you can load your cases full of the fastest pistol powder made. Nobody's going to say, "Stop, you're breaking the law." Follow the loading manuals or don't. They are not the gospel; only suggestions of what they found when they used the listed components.

If you, as a "newbie", feel that you know more than the combined knowledge of speer, hornady and nosler, go ahead and pack as much powder in the cases as you like. Just let me know so I can go hide behind the nearest tree.

You've got a lot to learn, but you might not live long enough to learn it all. Harrumph!

Hey Wrightboy, As a "newbie", you really should be far more concerned with getting the Reloading Basics under control, and much less concerned about MAX Loads.

However, there is nothing wrong with any of the Manuals, they are simply reporting what they are seeing with the Test Barrel and Components(Cases, Primers, Powders and Bullets) they have on hand. And yes indeed, there is that much variation in MAX between Test Rifles. From what you have seen, it is proper to gather that there can also be an even wider variation in regular old production firearms.

If you really want to know what is happening with your Pressure, the very best way is to check CHE & PRE using a 0.0001" capable Micrometer. For a very simple explaination, you simply compare the Expansion of your Test Loads with Factory Ammo and when you reach the same amount of Expansion - STOP.

The Manuals should be thought of as Guidelines, not Absolutes. There are NO SHORTCUTS to good, Safe, Reloading practices.

Best of luck to you.
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Edit In: Looks like Onefunzer was also concerned about the lack of understanding concerning the Manuals.

BTW, the reason you can't reach the velocities published in the manuals with your rifle is......your rifle. Throat dimensions, bore dimensions, chamber dimensions etc. The labs use chambers and barrels that are cut to the minimum spec or slightly under, while your production rifle is cut to max or bigger.
I have no problem reaching "book specs" and beating "factory" specs with my rifle, but I'm not using a "normal" chamber either.

I read somewhere between 80 and 90% case capacity usually produced the most accurate rounds. Any truth to that?

Sometimes it's true, depending on which case and powder your working with.
With Bullseye and the 38spl or 45ACP it's more like 30%, don't even try 50% full let alone 80%.
For my "goto" deer gun, case fill is in the 101-103% range

quote:

Originally posted by wrightboy:

Can I saftely load above manuals stated max loads and never go above 90% case capacity?
Any comments appreciated

No roger

There are levels of handloaders:
1) Newbie: has a lot of questions.
2) Recipe follower, loadbook thumping fundamentalist: Thinks his way is the only way.
3) Experimenter: has a lot of questions.

Most handloading forums on the internet are dominated by number two, but here at Accurate Reloading, there is some diversity.

To answer the question about

quote:

I'm using speer, hornady, and nosler manuals. From what I've seen so far they never match on the max load using the same powder

Those books did not come down from the mountain with Mosses, but they are still better than a Mexican road map.

quote:

Those books did not come down from the mountain with Mosses, but they are still better than a Mexican road map.

quote:

Originally posted by steve4102:
The short answer is, maybe.Max in "YOUR" rifle and stay below that.

Let me elaborate a little on Steve's good explanation by quoting Bob Hagel:

"every rifle is an individual. What may prove to be a maximum load in one might be quite mild in another, and VICE-VERSA!

Let's get specific. The maximum load you read in a manual is the maximum load for the rifle it was developed in. BUT!! if it proves to be maximum in some other rifle, that is merely a coincidence!!

What am I saying? Each reloader has to develop his own loading data for his own rifle(s).

In order to do this, you have to start with a safe load, then work up the powder charge incrementally until you either find a very satisfactory load - velocity is sufficient for your uses and accuracy is acceptable - OR you determine that you have worked up to a load level that is excessive and must be reduced!

The problem we all encounter is in developing the skill needed to evaluate a load to accurately determine when a load has exceeded reasonable pressure levels. Unfortunately, doing this requires skill development which can only come from experience! However, there are a couple of things we can watch for that give us good clues: When it starts becoming difficult to open the bolt as you increase the powder charge, pressures are becoming unacceptable. Likewise, if you find that, after firing a load, it is "too easy" to seat the next batch of primers, the load is too hot; that charge needs to be reduced at least 5%. And if you begin to see bolt face markings on cartridge case heads, pressures are way too high and again, the charge should be reduced at least 5%.

When I work up a load for a cartridge the size of the .30/'06, I load five rounds each in half-grain increments starting with a known-to-be- safe "starting load", and evaluate the performance of each batch of five as the charge weight increases. I stop increasing the powder charge when I get an acceptable accuracy level, because generally, even the velocity produced by the starting load is powerful enough for most hunting uses. Then I load up ten more rounds just the same, and test to make sure the accuracy I got with the first five was not just a fluke. If thses ten shoot good groups, I have my load!

When you work up a load this way, you may discover that you can use several grains more powder with a given bullet IN YOUR RIFLE than what a given manual calls a "maximum load". On the other hand, you may also discover that your rifle reaches a safe maximum load with LESS powder than the book's "maximum load". In this case, YOUR rifle may or may not be giving velocties identical to what you see in a book-you need a chronograph to determine this!

These days, we often hear that reloading manual "maximum loads" are below the "real" max. load with a given powder, case, primer, and bullet, to keep the manual publisher from liability when someone blows up a gun. BUT this may not be true! So never use anything but a starting load for the purpose of establishing a starting point for your load development process!

quote:

Originally posted by wrightboy:
I read somewhere between 80 and 90% case capacity usually produced the most accurate rounds. Any truth to that?

NOT in my opinion! BUT, I will say that best accuracy is usually obtained with a loading density of OVER 80%! In actuality, I use a lot of what would be called "too-slow" powders in certain cases, such as RL 22 with heavy bullets in the 6.5X54mm Mannlicher/Schoenauer and 7X57mm Mauser, and AA8700 in the .416 Rigby. The reason for this is I like to keep pressures as low as possible for an acceptable velocity level. AND accuracy is always better if the powder is not allowed to shift positions inside the case. For this reason, I like compressed loads-OVER 100% loading density.