The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading What about barrel twist on large N.A. game rifles?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| What about barrel twist on large N.A. game rifles? | Login/Join |
One of Us |
Matching the bullet to the barrel twist is important to me. How about you? Life itself is a gift. Live it up if you can. | ||
|
One of Us |
This poll is kinda like saying how important is accuracy... Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I agree with that statement. Even so, a surprising number of folks who offer up their "good load" still never mention twist. Life itself is a gift. Live it up if you can. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Well...if somebody said "Hey I have this load that uses 180 grn bullets and it shoots 3/4 MOA or better in my 5 308s" And somebody asked "What is the twist rate?" And if the answer was well 1 is 1-10, 1 is 1-11, and three are 1-12...would anybody care? Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
|
One of Us |
You already know the answer; of course it is important; so why isn't it mentioned more often? Because most rifles' twist rates are already optimized for the heaviest practical bullet weight that will be shot, or that is available in that caliber. So most rifles shoot most bullets to acceptable hunting accuracy. Case in point which has already been mentioned; .30 cal; most 30-06s have 1 in 10 twist and most 308s have 1 in 12. Do you really think that matters? Not until you get into some very heavy bullets which no one shoots in them anyway. So, yes it is important, and yes, I carefully select twists on every barrel blank I buy, but factory rifles? If they shoot well, who cares? Oh, I just installed an 11.25 twist .308 on a Rem 700; that is what it has to be; nothing else will work. | |||
|
| One of Us |
For the utmost in accuracy we want the slowest twist that will stabilize the heaviest bullet we'll use. My 300 WSM 1K BR rifle won many matches and shot several screamer groups with 220 SMKs in a 1x11 twist barrel. However, in a hunting rifle, we need the bullet to remain stable as it passes through the animal. If it becomes unstable it won't penetrate as well. With that in mind you can make a good case for using a slightly faster than required twist on a hunting rifle. Having said that, it's been pretty well established for a very long time what twists work best with what bullets in what caliber and chambering. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Are you that somebody? I would care about all the particulars, including, not just the twist rate.
Life itself is a gift. Live it up if you can. | |||
|
one of us |
The only instance where twist rate gave me a problem was with a 223 M700. It had a 1 in 14 barrel and would not stabilize monometal bullets. Wound up re-barreling to 1 in 9.  Other than that one rifle, I have no idea what the twist rates are in any of the others. As long as they shoot accurately I have no reason to worry about it. Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
|
| One of Us |
This rifle didn't like most readily available factory loads, all loads had bullets under 150 grains. Best groups were like 1.5 inches and not consistent. So, I checked on the twist and the mfgr told me the twist was fast at 8.66" and it likes heavy bullets. I found the 156 grain Norma Oryx which will shoot 3 rounds under an inch one time then 1.25 the next time which is fine for closer shots. But, this gun was just begging me to do better. So, what started as a under 100 yard gun has changed. I am bound to make it my long range gun to replace my much heavier 98 Mauser. My intention is to get groups of 3 to shoot 1/4" consistently with reloads. Knowing the twist started the ball rolling.
Life itself is a gift. Live it up if you can. | |||
|
| One of Us |
A faster twist doesn't mean a barrel will shoot heavy/long bullets well but not lighter/shorter bullets. All a faster twist does is allow a barrel to stabilize heavy/long bullets. Now a particular barrel may shoot certain bullets better than others, but as long as the twist rate is fast enough to stabilize the bullets being shot, twist will not make short/light bullets shoot worse than long/heavy bullets. In fact, even in fast twist barrels, short bullets often shoot more accurately than long bullets. Consistent 1/4" 100 yd groups from a long range bullet is not likely. My 1000 yd BR rifle that shot several 5-shot groups between 3.5 and 4" at 10000 yds shot around 1/2" at 100 yds. Also, the bullet that works best for groups at long range will be shorter, lighter, and have a lesser BC that the bullet that works best for long range hunting. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Thanks for your input INTJ. You certainly covered lots of angles. I'll know soon enough if I can squeeze two concurrent 3 shot 1/4 inch groups out of this rifle. Life itself is a gift. Live it up if you can. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Welcome to the dark side!!! | |||
|
| one of us |
The requirement for hunting and target shooting are different. As INTJ said, welcome to the dark side! Twist is a factor that is very important and a rifle that is used for 1000yd shooting at paper will not be the best for shooting animals at typical hunting distances. Something that is often overlooked is the fact that twist determines gyroscopic stability (Sg) and that Sg increases as the bullet flies away from the muzzle. With the wider use of monometal bullets, matching the bullet to the twist, the distance and the application has highlighted this and has made better shooters out of all of us. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I'm sold on just that Gerard, gyroscopic stability that is. At this point, I believe that in many cases stability really doesn't seem to improve until way down the range due to harmonic vibrations within the action and barrel. This certainly explains what many long-rangers say about stability at least. My theory is that the more harmonic vibration (or distortion) there is within the action and barrel, the further down range the point at which the bullet will achieve harmonic stability will be. I believe that if we can alleviate all of these distortions, in theory we can achieve bullet stability much earlier than if we allowed the distortions to remain. So, since my goal is to stabilize my groups as early as possible for hunting at 300 yards or less, I think addressing the following variables should alleviate most harmonic vibrations. Bullet jump, case expansion, barrel imperfections, air space within the case, bullet weight vs twist rate, precise powder weight, matching the burn rate of the powder to the bullet weight, barrel deposits like copper and carbon, bullet speed, etc. Thanks for the food for thought.
Life itself is a gift. Live it up if you can. | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading What about barrel twist on large N.A. game rifles?
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia