Hi all.
Looking for advise (HELP !). Trying to anneal some 8x68S RWS cases , I used the gas from the stove ,and then threw them to pan of water,in the process they seemed to loose their charasteristics, and after they were reloaded and fired , they got stuck in the rifle chamber. The question is , how can I restore their primitive metalurgic charasterictics ? Here there is no way to get new brass ,or reloadig components. We owners of odd calibres has to dissasemble aviable ammo and use its components. (Odd calibre here is any that is not 308, 3006 or 300WM). Thank you.
Pulki.

quote:

Originally posted by pulki:
..... Trying to anneal some 8x68S RWS cases , I used the gas from the stove.......

Definitely a bad way to anneal; I fear that your cases are dead because you annealed ALL and I see no cure for them. Why didn't you refer to this recent post?

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2511043/m/712108088

How stuck do they get? I bet if you put a little imperial sizing wax on the case, just like if you are resizing in your dies, before you fire them it will help them to not stick. Give it a try, dont use much... Sounds like they are TOO soft, fire them a couple times and they will harden back up....maybe!

quote:

Originally posted by The Derek:
.... I bet if you put a little imperial sizing wax on the case, just like if you are resizing in your dies, before you fire them it will help them to not stick.....

Shooting lubricated ammos is a dangerous practice. I strongly advise you not to do it.

Didnt realize that it could be dangerous, maybe some more people will give more information about this. What can happen? I have done that before with some cases that didnt want to extract properly, VERY lightly added some sizing wax and it seemed to help. I didnt have any problems.

Lubeing brass increases thrust on the bolt.

Oil or Grease on the brass or in the chamber will prevent the brass from expanding to the chamber size and cause Higher pressure

How did you anel useing the stove gas? Did you put the whole case in the flame? Not good

5030 p/n
8x68S caliber RWS brand case
33.98 price per 20

Don't give up yet, RCBS (Huntington's) still lists this caliber & I believe they export as well. r in s.

Thank you for the answers. I grabbed each case with a plier , placed the neck in the fire ,when they changed color, I threw them in a pan of water. And yes ,they got "very" stuck and was hard to free them.
Perhaps there is a temperature treatment procedure to regain their initial properties.

PULKI

Ray in seattle
The cases, and most of my reloading equipment was purchased in Huntingtons , Althoug a bit more expensive than others, they always had what I needed , they were serious and never have a complaint. But those were the good old times before the restrictions, here and there.Now is too dificcoult to export any component from the USA. And to clear them from customs in my country has become a bad joke. You can loose days in the paperwork ,and it is very expensive. We have a socialist goverment, and they dislike an armed citizen ,but love a guerrilla,love the burocracy and love even more to rise taxes.
PULKI

Pulki, sorry for your issue; IMO the stove cannot give enough heat to rise the neck temperature in a short time, like a torch can do. Keeping brass with pliers didn't let you notice that all the case was getting too hot, so, the base has been annealed too. I fear that, other than extraction problems, you will have loose primer pockets too.

Dear Pulki:

I do not know of a way to restore the metalurgical properties of the brass that you have already annealed.

As mentioned above, the case head probably got too hot and softened, which caused it to expand too much, when fired. I would throw it out. I sympathize with your plight as to a lessened supply of brass caused by government intrusion, but in my opinion re-using that brass in its presently weakened state is pretty dangerous.

I have had luck annealing case necks by standing them up in a pan of one inch deep water. Next, I quickly heat up the necks with a propane hand held torch by moving the torch in a circular motion completely around the neck until the neck is cherry red and glowing from all sides, then I immediately knock it over into the water. You can put 20-40 cases in the pan, and do one at at time. Just leave enough space between each case so you can heat the neck with the torch from 360 degrees. The water in the pan keeps the hardened case head from annealing. I change out the water with cold water after each batch of 20-40 cases.

After they are annealed, I then clean them up, trim them and resize them for about five reloads, then re-anneal them.

There are some other members here, who probably have much more experience than I.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

If you hold the case headin your fingers, and
use a torch you will not soften the case head
(guarnteed). A better way is to use TempLac.
As to lubing the case; An oily case does not
raise pressure (how could it). What a oiled case
does is it pushes back against the breech face at a lower pressure then expands forward.
Since a dry case will stick forward ubtil some
pressure like 40 kpsi the old timers used an oiled
case as a "Proof load". That was the only way they could check the breech locking.
Good Luck!

I'd pitch the brass and take it as a lessoned learned. The subtle flame in a stove likely heats the brass too slowly, and as mentioned above you probably got the entire case too hot. You never anneal the case head. You need a HOT flame to do it quick.

Also, never use any lube on the case whatsoever before chambering a round and firing it. Your chamber and your bore should be DRY with every single firing. Always think "metal on metal."

Again thank you for your answers , they have been enlightening for me , and will apply your advise and know how in the future . I took a decision, that is to discard the damaged (by my ignorance) cases.
I started annealing because for the first time I lost some of them due to neck cracking after rezising . I must confess you that I did the same %& $*% .. procedure with 30 R Blaser and 416 RM brass , although I did not fire them after the first experience. So the the list of casualties ammount to 23 8x68S ; 28 30R ; and 14 416 RM cases.
So,the next time I plan to do something new in reloading, I will check this tread first.

Pulki.

Dear Pulki:

Don't beat yourself up too much. If I had a dime for all the screw ups that I have done in my life, I could retire.

By the way, if you can get the A-Square reloading manual, "Any Shot You Want", published in 1996, it describes how to anneal cases, and it includes pictures. That's how I learned how to do it and why to do it.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

It's not really clear that you can properly anneal a case with a single propane torch, but people seem to get some decent results that way. The annealing machines I have seen mostly use two torches. I have the Ken Light machine which does a good job for me. The hard thing to do do by hand with a single torch is to QUICKLY heat the neck evenly and let cool at room temp. The single torch heats too slowly and so we have to throw the case in a bucket of water to prevent the heat spreading to the rest of the case, which as you now know is not the desired result.

Some interesting reading on annealing:
http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

I strongly advise that you toss that brass. You have 'annealed'--SOFTENED, the enitre case, and you are most assuredly on the ragged edge of a case head seperation. YOU DO NOT want that!

Study up on annealing, but don't fire a round with those cases at all.

You are flirting with a real problem IMO.

Sorry for your headache, but always better safe than sorry!

quote:

Originally posted by Yale:
By the way, if you can get the A-Square reloading manual, "Any Shot You Want", published in 1996, it describes how to anneal cases, and it includes pictures. That's how I learned how to do it and why to do it.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

+1, that's a great book.

The one poster is right that they will harden by working them. That is shooting them and resizing them. Apparently you have shot them with full power loads. I would not do that again, but load them with a reduced load.

There are lots of theories on shooting with an oily chamber or lube/oil on the cartridges. One particular Japanese machine gun of WWII required that the cartridges be oiled for it operate right. In Vietnam when the U.S. had troubles with the M16 the soldiers were told to squirt lots of LSA lubricant not only on the bolt carrier group but into the chambers also.

When an engineer designs a rifle action he designs it to withstand a certain pressure limit. I'm not sure they figure in whether the chamber is oily. I don't think a very light coat of imperial wax would hurt anything with a reduced load. Some people fire form brass by loading it with a fast powder and filling the rest of the case up with Cream of Wheat. Maybe you could do this a few times to work harden them.

You'd have to fire and resize a number of times to work harden them enough. Brass starts to anneal at 450F .But the easiest way is to put them in a pan of water and heat only the necks with a propane torch. When it turns red tip it into the water. This is the proscribed method.
I would discard those cases and start again.

Cartridge brass which has been annealed over it's entire length will exhibit signs of excessive pressure even with moderate and reduced loads. Indeed, cases in this condition are subjected to excessive pressures. Any pressure is excessive. Head separation, incipient head separation , stuck or sticky cases, blown primers, swollen cases, swollen case heads, enlarged primer pockets) I mean R-E-A-L-L-Y enlarged) and just about every other sign of excessive pressure imaginable can occur with cases which have been annealed over their entire length.

Since you have fired them already and they stuck and that is all, maybe you didn't get them really soft by your wrong method of annealing. This is not a statement to say that firing them is okay. The only way to harden them is to work harden them by working the brass, that is somehow expanding them and then resizing them. In the worse scenarios of too soft cases you can blow up your rifle, have a head separation, the primer pocket become oversize (talking a lot over sized) sticking in the chamber, etc. How are the primer pockets on the cases that you have fired since you annealed the entire case?

quote:

Originally posted by wildboar:

quote:

Originally posted by The Derek:
.... I bet if you put a little imperial sizing wax on the case, just like if you are resizing in your dies, before you fire them it will help them to not stick.....

Shooting lubricated ammos is a dangerous practice. I strongly advise you not to do it.

People shoot lubricated ammo all the time and don't realize it. Usually a vertically stored rifle will have a bit of oil in the chamber that is never wiped out before the first shot.
Go check out Varmint Al's finete element analysis on a case with varying degrees of coefficient of friction. The extra bolt thrust is a lot less than what you would think.

I am adding my 2 cents to the list of good advise about NOT lubing the case before firing it. The thrust on the bolt face increases badly.
There isn't any way to harden the brass back except to fire it. From what you have said I wouldn't do it. When brass is heated to a dull red it is softened. The water only keeps the heat from moving to the base and softening it also. I stand short rifle cases in a cake pan of water so only the neck and a short lenght of the body are out of the water. I use a propane torch in a dimly lit room to heat the neck. Tipping them over isn't necessary as they are finished softening when they get to the dull red stage. The water only lets you move to the next step more quickly.

Steve

A oiled case does not increase the bolt thrust
above 40 kpsi or so. In a dry chamber a chamber
with headspace will let the primer protrude upon firing. Above 40 kpsi or so the case will break free and come back over the primer giving it a "rivet" look. An oiled case will come back
at low pressure and expand forward thus avoiding
the "expansion ring". Once a case comes back it
exerts the same force dry or oiled.
This sequence has been proven by Finite Element
analysis, measurement, and experience.
God luck!