The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading A .358 load / I'm still not sure it's safe !Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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I have always loaded AA2015 br for my .358 but alas it is no longer available and I loaded my last two boxes of shell for an uip coming bear hunt. I've been trying to find a substitute for a long time.I found a load in an old Barjnes manual that lists 53/758/250 grn bullet. I tried it and got 2350 out of my blr lever rifle, Also tried 54/748/225 nosler for 2460 from my rifle.Both gave excellent accuracy ! A fellow from Calif. said he used that load in africa with no problems. Both loads fill up to about 1/2 the neck,using a long drop tube. I've shot them quite a bit here in cool weather but also last summer in 90 degreee heat. Am I playing with fire here or what? These give about the max performance out of a 20" bbl .358 win | ||
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358, My favorite load is the sierra 225 gameking and win 748, with NON mag primers, start at 45 grains and work to your gun. jeffe | |||
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Quote: Yes. Lyman, Hodgdon, and Winchester (using .356 data) can get no better than mid to upper 2200's in a 24" bbl. All use about 46 gn of powder, including the medium speed ball powders such as 748 and BL-C(2). | |||
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Quote: 356 data? The 356 is NOT the 358, as it was built for springy winchester-copies. The blr and savage 99 are bolt guns with a lever handle, in terms of lockup. the 358 factory load for 250 is 2250, and for 2200 is 2400. jeffe | |||
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My BLR .358 gave 2,400fps w/ .5" groups, using the 225 Partition over 48 grains of IMR-4895, which I have found to be a "must-try" powder for this cartridge. Standard primers CCI and Fed. | |||
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Are you sure AA2015 is not available? The AA web site still shows it and I recently saw it on the shelf locally. I hope they stay with it. My favorite powder for 223 varmint loads. | |||
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I have a model 70 that was rebarreled to 358. I've had good luck with AA2520 using 47.5 grains and the 225 Nosler ballistic tip. I know it's a long bullet, but it shoots well in my rifle giving me around 2400 fps. I've also used 44 grains of H322 with the Sierra 225. Both shoot under an inch. Bob257 | |||
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Yes 10 at 6 the old stuff AA 2015br is gone,the new stuff is ,I think , xx 2015 extruded. If it doesn't have the br on it then it's the new stuff and doesn't have the same burning rate or give the same vel. If you have found some of the old stuff get it, if you don't want it I will buy it. | |||
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358, A powder to keep in mind for testing is RL-10. It's a short stick that burns about like IMR 3031 but packs better. I got very good velocities with 180 and 200 gr bullets. Accuracy was as good as it's going to get as well. The velocities that your getting from a 20" barrel are pretty good. Try those 748 loads now that it's getting hot out and if the pressure is ok then be happy. | |||
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OK, this is a bit off the wall, but there used to be an article by Paco Kelly on Sixgunner.com on the .358. he postedload data that was downright scary to me, but he also said that he felt the .358 was not loaded to it's full potential. He has his own site, I believe called leverguns, and IIRC, he had contact info on that site. he also had an article on the .35 Whelen with some extreme loads. The .358 article was a two part article. I did have both stored in my computer, but a nasty crash wiped it and some other stuff I had right out of existance. If you can't find the article or contact Paco, E-mail me and I'll try and get a copy to you. Fortunatly I printed out a copy to stick in my reference binders. Saved a lot of stuff that I'd lost when I had that crash. Paul B. | |||
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Varget has the same burn rate as W748, and I get 2472 fps using 49.0 grs and a 225 gr Sierra in my 24 inch bbl. It likes mild compression, and is one of these "Extreme" powders that is not sensitive to heat and cold. Your 748 charge weight is higher than the max listed in Nosler 5th ED. However, your velocity is about right for a max load with that powder. In a strong action you are uaually safe with powders in this burn rate when you get in the mid to high 2400 fps range with a 225 gr spitzer. If you have doubts, give Varget a try and see if you can make the same velocity as with 748...it is a bit more forgiving. | |||
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Quote: hIS bARREL IS 20"...NOT 24" | |||
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I've never crossed the 50.0 grain barrier in my .358, usually finding Max around the 45-48 gr. level with a number of powders. Nor have I achieved published velocities. Places I've been: RX12, H335, IMR4895, Varget, BLC-2, WW748. I've loaded 225 Partitions and BT's, and 250 gr. Hornady IL Spitzers. Recent article by Barsness suggests TAC for the cartridge, 47.5 gr for the 220-225 gr. bullets, 50 gr for the 200 gr. slugs. 45.5 gr for the Hornady 250 RNIL. I have no experience with this powder, but his velocities are near what you seek. He says it burns a bit slower than RX12, and is a Ball Powder. Start 3.0 gr. low, work up, or so John says. | |||
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Quote: Both SAAMI at 52,000 CUP. My references give the case volumes as approx. 55 gn for the .356 and 57 gn for the .358. The COL is shorter for the .356 due to the lever guns using it, but their standard FP bullets needn't be seated quite as deep. Using 250 gn bullets, net case volume will be about 40 gn for the .356 and 44 for the .358, giving about a 2.5% edge in fps for the .358, or about 50 fps. Hodgdon lists the .356-250 as 2151 in a 20" barrel and the .358-250 as 2260 in a 24" barrel. With equal length barrels there would be about ... 50 fps! The point is moot: I misread the Winchester load data. They give 2250 fps for 250 gn bullets over 748 powder for the .358, not for the .356. Their .356 data is all under 31,000 CUP, rather mild. Quote: The 99 is a rear locking, tipping breech action; it is not a bolt gun. The beefed up 1894's were also rear locking actions. Both will be a bit springy in comparison to a front locking bolt gun such as the BLR, but that has nothing to do with what the factories can load ammo to. Springiness affects case life over several reloads, which is not a principle concern for the ammo factories. Quote: Which is what I said the load books report for the .358. The thread began with a fellow reporting 2350 from 20" vs. 2250 from 24". The pressure is plainly higher than spec. The equations for the Powley Computer give a 52,000 CUP estimate for the standard load and 60,000 CUP for the load posted -- ouch. If I recall, the BLR was made for some of the magnums, meaning there is enough lug area for those fatter cases and their higher breech thrusts. Still, I don't like to load so much over specs. | |||
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Quote: Hey Carl, How many loads do you get before the Primer Pockets are "too loose"? | |||
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asdf, a couple things... 1: i posted the same loads for win in 358 that you did.. and i have three of them 2: yes, winchester loads the 356 much lighter than saami, as you affirmed, since that is what i stated. subpoint, the 356 is a thicker case and has less capacity,... exactly like the 307. this is significant \3: location of lugs is irrelevant in the discussion, recall the rem 788, rear lugs. the savage 99 and blr are both loaded for HIGH pressure rounds. the 243, 708, 308, and 358 have all been in both guns. The 94 actions that you bring up are NOT the same thing. In fact, in the 50's, the 356 was deleveloped for the 94 as it could NOT handle the 358 pressure and thrust. the 94's had the 307, 7x30 waters, adn 356 developed for them. These are hugely different rounds and actions If you don't understand the analogy that the blr and 99 are in fact "just bolt guns with a lever", that fine. I have a 99 in my gunsafe, and have had several blrs and winchesters. The 99 was built , from the ground up, to match the strength of a bolt gun, in a lever action. That's why it sold.. it could handle the 250-3000 savage!!! other than than the blr, no other lever gun could. breach thrust? you mean bolt thrust, of course. IIRC, the 358 win, in factory rounds, has a higher bolt thrust that a 7 rem mag. Here's the facts, sir, he asked about 358 winchesters, not the 356 data you produced. I have been loading 358 win in factory and custom rifles for about 15 years, trying every powder, bullet, and primer that I could, as this is my favorite round for north american game. I own three of them, and load for 2 more. Perhaps this is an area that I have both the practical and the field experience in. jeffe | |||
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jeffeosso: sorry, my original post was not clear. The ".356" load I referred to was from my misreading of the Win. data only. For the Hodgdon and Lyman loads, I had looked at .358. And as I said, I did misread the Win. data; I had read their .358 data instead. My original post, then did deal only with .358 data. As for the .356, the fact remains it IS spec'd at the same 52,000 CUP of the .358, and the cases are nearly the same size. The reason the .358 could not be put in the beefed up 1894 was the COL and the spitzer bullets. If I recall, Win. tried the .356 in standard 1894s, but then designed the beefed up receiver to better handle it. Again, the 99, like the 1895 Win. is a rear locking gun, as is the SMLE turn bolt. All such actions are more likely to stretch brass. That's probably why the .356 has thicker brass. I've looked over both at gun shows and can't see why the heavy version of the 1894 is considered so weak. Both it and the 99 must carry the thrust back to the barrel through a long bolt to a rear locking surface and then forward through the long sides of the receiver. This is not a recipe for minimal case stretch. Perhaps the innards of the 1894 bolt leave it more springy. The BLR is a different beast altogether. It is a front locking turn bolt operated by an underlever. Like such turn bolts, case stretch will be minimal. (Why anyone would want to replace a simple knob on a turn bolt with all those levers and gears is beyond me  ).Breech thrust and bolt thrust are the same, of course; in a bolt gun the bolt is the breech. Sigh. And -- sorry -- I just don't see how a 7 RM operating at the same 52,000 CUP SAAMI limit is going to create less thrust than the narrower bodied .358. Howdy, Hot Core. No, I have never loosened primers in any of my handloads. I did badly flatten some in a .357 for my T/C and had to take those cartridges apart. When it comes to high energy propellants, I am admittedly a chicken. | |||
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Jeffe sez, "The 99 was built , from the ground up, to match the strength of a bolt gun, in a lever action. That's why it sold.. it could handle the 250-3000 savage!!! other than than the blr, no other lever gun could." Seems like you forgot the Winchester M88.  And, "breach thrust? you mean bolt thrust, of course. IIRC, the 358 win, in factory rounds, has a higher bolt thrust that a 7 rem mag." I disagree. The square area of the case head of the .358 is smaller than the case head area of the 7MM mag. The 7MM mag. would have the greater bolt thrust than the .358 Win. provided both were loaded to the same maximum pressure level. The highest pressure level I can find in the latest Lyman loading manual (#48) for the .358 Win. is 49,600 C.U.P., and the the lowest Pressure for the 7MM mag. is 46,400 C.U.P. However, most of the lower level pressures are in the 52,000 C.U.P. range which I feel is more reasonable. (FWIW, that lowest level load was the maximum charge of H-4831 with a 175 gr. bullet. Guess they couldn't get enough in the case to go higher although it was not denoted as a compressed load. Something screwy there IMHO.) Whether we agree or disagree, the .358 is one fine cartridge that is highly under rated by the unwashed that call themselve gun editors/ "Egg-spurts". Paul B. | |||
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We're batting around the old handloaders' debate on how hot can one "safely" load. Data developed in pressure barrels clearly shows 2250 fps from 24" is about all one can get with 250 gn spitzers in a .358 running at SAAMI limits. If you're getting 100-200 fps more in a shorter, 20" BLR, there is no question you're running at much higher pressures. The root question is "will the gun and the brass take a hotter load." In your experience with one BLR, yes. In general, I believe the answer is also "yes." Modern metallurgy and manufacturing techniques make it so; our thanks go out to the engineers. However, I, Karl the Chicken, choose to load to fps levels a bit below load book levels. Factory guns are (generally) designed and proofed for a very long and safe operating life. Running at higher pressures must shorten this life. But that shorter life of the action may still be longer than the typical service the gun will see in one shooter's lifetime. The key word is "may." No manufacturing is on 100% of the time. Chickens like me dwell on the "may." More adventuresome souls willingly take on the higher risk that comes with hotter performance. | |||
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Karl, I agree with you on this one.. if one uses the same powder and a shorter barrel, and one gets more velocity, they have higher pressure... if one uses a different powder, and how many have been invented since 1956, with better results, then the powder gets better. Winchester, at that time, was obviously not going to use anyone powder but their own (pre-olin split) jeffe | |||
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Quote: Hey Karl, You might find this a bit funny - actually the guy that started this thread is named "Carl"(aka .358) and that was who I was asking about his "Case Life".  Anyway, glad to hear you are having good luck with your Loads too. I'd suspect that Carl is the very most "experienced" Bear Hunter on this Board. If any of you all happen to see him mention anything about Black Bears vs. Bullets, you might learn a good bit by seeing what he has to say on the subject. So how `bout it Crock(aka .358, aka2 Carl)? How's those Primer Pockets doing? | |||
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Quote: Seems there is a bit of hope for those wishing to turn their .358 Win into a .35 Whelen. I see Accurate claims mashing one of their slower ball powders under the shorter 250 gn RN bullets allows one to get nearly 2400 fps in 24". I'm a bit skeptical; I refer you to their section on the .348. Still, it can't be dismissed out of hand since Hornady is making money with the Light Magnum line which uses heavily compressed charges of powders slower than normal for the cartridge. That Lyman didn't pick up on this magic combination makes me wonder though. This load from Accurate is 100 fps faster than any other pressure tested load I can find on my bookshelf. Hot Core: oops, that was rather vain on my part... | |||
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Quote: Hey Karl, No problem. Anyone can easily see how you thought I was asking you.Now I am wondering why we haven't heard back from Carl. Sure hope he hasn't blowed himself up. Huuuummm, maybe he is off somewhere inserting a 35cal bullet into a Bear.  | |||
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One can only get so much out of any particular cartridge using conventional loading techniques. In general high density powders or drop tubes work best at getting the most velocity if that's the goal. I wonder why no experimenter has tried to do what Hornady has done with the Light or Heavy Magnums. Perhaps someone has? | |||
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.358 WINCHESTER Introduced in 1955 by Winchester for their Model 70 bolt action and Model 88 lever action rifles, the .358 Winchester is based on the .308 Winchester case necked up to .35 caliber. This is a cartridge that was too good to die but did anyway. The SAAMI Maximum Average Pressure for the .358 Winchester is 52,000 C.U.P. .358 WINCHESTER Gun DOUGLAS Max Length 2.015 " Barrel Length 24 " Trim Length 1.995 " Primer WLR OAL Max 2.780 " Case WW OAL Min 2.730 " START LOADS MAXIMUM LOADS Cartridge Bullet Powder Grains Vel. Powder Grains Vel. C.U.P. Length Comment www.accuratepowder.com/loaddata_caliber_rifle_standard_358cal.htm START LOADS MAXIMUM LOADS Length Comment SRA 225 SBT 2015 36.9 2109 2015 41.0 2397 49,300 2.740 " 2230 38.7 2062 2230 43.0 2343 50,800 2460 39.6 2090 2460 44.0 2375 51,000 2495 41.4 2116 2495 46.0 2405 47,800 Compressed 2520 43.2 2167 2520 48.0 2462 49,000 Compressed 2700 47.5 2111 2700 50.0 2246 47,600 Compressed HDY 250 RN 2015 36.0 2013 2015 40.0 2288 49,600 2.745 " 2230 38.7 1998 2230 43.0 2271 52,000 2460 39.6 2033 2460 44.0 2310 52,000 2495 41.4 2027 2495 46.0 2303 43,400 Compressed 2520 45.6 2247 2520 48.0 2390 49,700 Compressed 2700 47.5 2081 2700 50.0 2214 49,800 Compressed This is off the AAC site Much more info than the downloadable Guide. The 2520 DATA should get you back to the orginal point with 100% density. Backing off some from that point should take you to the old VEL Shoot Safe Keep Shootin' | |||
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Hotcore,Pop,Jeff and everyone thanks for chiming in.You have given me a great deal of useful information and much to try and ponder on. Hotcore, thanks for the kind words about bear hunting. You guessed it I am getting ready for another trip and will leave soon. I don't know what to say about the primer pockets. I load them 3-4 times and toss em' I have a bunch of original .358 brass (for hunting) and it's so easy to make it out of .308 stuff. the original stuff has a little more case capacity than those made from .308,s My .358's are used only for bear and hog hunting, so the rifles should last awhile. I currenty own 2 Blr's (sold one to Pop)a Model 88 win rebored to .358 and a Savage 99 A . All are fine hunting rifles and I find them much handier,and faster for my applications. I have used the 748 loads in each rifle but the 99 ,it won't take the pressure. I'm not trying to make the .358 something it isn't just trying to get it's max. performance which I did with the old AA2015br. But now I'm starting over. I do have the Paco Kelly artice and it is very interesting. As to bullets for black bear,I haven't found a premium bullet necessary. Last year I shot a nice .350 lb chocolate colored bear with a .250 Hornady sp. It did the job, bear fell on spot and I recovered the bullet but I think the bullet is softer than a speer. I have shot msany bears with the plain old .250 sp and have never found but one bullet ,it penetrated both shoulders of a huge bear them broke the off leg(steep downward angle)and held togather quite well. Appreciate you guys remembering me and all the good information you have given. Now if I can just get this darn flower garden finished. I can pack ! Good shooting and hunting to all. Take care out there and God bless. Carl (aka. .358) | |||
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Hotcore, Pop, Jeff, eguallo and every one. thanks for the excellent and updated info. Hotcore, thank you for the kind words about bear hunting. You guessed it I'm heading to Manitoba in a few weeks for another hunt. I don't know what to say about the primer pockets. I shoot them about 3 times then pitch them. I use the original .358 cases for my huting loads But make cases from .308's for pratice. I do have the Paco Kelly articles, they are very interesting. But, folks like you give me better info. as you guys shoot and load a lot. I'm not trying to make the .358 into something it isn't just trying to start over with new powders for max performance. I find the .358 perfect for my needs, bear and wild boar. for me it has the perfect balance of power and shootability.I currently have 2 Blr's (sold one to Pop a while back) one Model 88 win. rebored from .308 to .358 and a Savage 99 A I've shot the 748 loads in each rifle except the 99 as it won't take the pressure. Again thank you very much for all the help, you have given me some things to ponder on. Now if I can get my wife,s honey do jobs done, I can pack for my trip. Good shooting and hunting to all, Take care and God Bless. Carl (aka .358) | |||
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Sav99... I tired, kinda.. i bought some 30-06 light mags.. and then tore a couple down.. and tried to get all that powder back in... couldn't even get close jeffe | |||
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Quote: There you go fellows, a class act we can all learn from. Hey Carl, (If you are out of the Petunias yet ), I like to get a few more reloads per case, but that is just me. Four loads and not getting a blown Primer indication says to me your original Load you asked about is probably just fine.I'm guessing those 250gr Hornady SPs may be 2-diameter. If so, that will lower your Pressure and give higher velocity. If you change back to your old favorite Speer, be sure to work back up, cause they will possibly show Pressure Indicators with less Powder than the Hornadys. I've also found the Rear Lock-Up of the M99 won't take the same pressure as other actions will easily handle. The M99s are excellent rifles when loaded to Pressures that work well "in them". Saw too many 1-shot kills made by 358Win M99s to doubt their killing ability. But like you, I like a SAFE MAX Load. ... Had a neighbor ease into the drive this week. Thought he was driving a bit funny. After he got stopped, his truck was aimed right at me, but off aways. He got out, we talked for awhile about rifles and going fishing, but he said he couldn't go right then. Then he was ready to take off. As I stood up, I noticed something in the bed of his truck. I figured it was Tomato plants and walked down to see. Come to find out, his wife had sent him for Petunias and she wouldn't let him go fishing until they were planted. ... Best of luck on the hunt Carl. | |||
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Yes, that 2520 load is the one I was referring to, in their No. 2 manual. One must be sure to look for second opinions on most things, including pressure barrel tests. My favorite example follows. Consider the following max load from Alliant's pressure tests: .30-30 170 gn 2.545" COL 24" bbl 34.1 gn R-15 2330 fps versus this from Lyman's tests: .30-30 170 gn 2.540" COL 24" bbl 32.0 gn R-15 2110 fps Lyman noted their max load was compressed. Both indicate their data was from pressure barrels, but perhaps Lyman's fps came from a factory rifle instead of the pressure barrel; some load books do this instead of giving the higher pressure barrel fps number. So who to believe? That 2330 fps is beyond what you can find with other powders in other books. The old saying "if it looks too good to be true" probably applies. Unless that load for 2520 is backed up with tests from another lab., I'll still consider 2250 fps, maybe 2275, tops for the .358 firing 250 gn bullets. Hmmmm, that reminds me: I've long wanted one of those in a short action bolt gun... Karl | |||
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jeffesso, Likewise my efforts have been minimal. I did shoot some Light Magnums in a 7mm-08 and the 139 gr bullets made 2900 fps from a 22" barrel. The groups were 3" at 100 yds from a rifle that does 1.5 MOA or better. Also the case heads expanded .0025". I never knowingly load above a .001" expansion. My "test" may be an aberation and others may have normal pressures and good accuracy. As to hot loads in a 99 I agree with the fact that it's not a good idea. I have shot a 99F thousands of times since I got it in 1966. A few overloads, caused by incorrect data from AA, made the cases partially separate. I have shot this rifle so much that I wore out an RCBS FL die to the point that it would not make neck tension to hold bullets. They sent me a new die by the way. Now the rifle has excessive headspace. I am not going to have someone take it apart and now I make brass from 30-06 cases for it's cartridge which is a .358. These cases are very satisfactory and do not weaken or thin at the web. Not at least so far. My load is 48.5 grs of RL-10 and the 180 gr Speer FN that makes 2775 fps. This load is quite accurate and the very thin barrel will make two shot groups about one MOA from a hand held rifle. I have done the crown over on this rifle and the forend bedding as well. The 99's have a very small receiver ring and are rear locking actions. All in all a 99 makes a very sweet hunting rifle. Fast to operate and very well made. My sentimental favorite. | |||
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