I have an old 1 lb. can of IMR 4350 and a 1 lb. can of IMR 3031 that were "stored" in the rafters of my neighbors garage for about 10 years. The styrofoam cap thingys are missing.Temps ranged from -20 to probably in the 110+ high end.Its hot in the rafters.High summer humidity too.

The powders look O.K.,and they don't have that rancid smell of powder that has gone south, or that reddish dust I have seen and read about.

There were other powders that I got from him that were in the same box as these, and those had seen better days. Rancid smell, red dust. They got burned in the pit.

What are the risks of trying these other old powders that "seem" to be O.K.? How can I be sure that they are safe to use?

Cool and dry storage is optimum for smokeless powder. Doesn't sound like either was the case. But, if it still smells good and isn't rusty red, it might be okay.

If you decide to try some out, work up loads per usual then...


... watch out for the last inch or so in the can. I used some older powder that seemed to burn hotter due to "fines" / powder dust from deterioration. In other words, NOT granules.

As long as it looks and smells ok I would have no trouble using it. Just like BNgel says work up loads as normal.

I loaded some old H-380 from the early 60s and it shot alright. My cousin gave it to me I dont know how it was stored. Lake City stored theirs underground.

It may have lost some of its bang. To know that, you could proof it against some new powder. My only concern would be to work up a load with it and then when you used the same load with new powder, the new powder would be hotter.

Ten years isn't "old". It's deteroiation that matters anyway, seems your's hasn't done that; shoot it.

My gut tells me this powder is O.K. judging by the look and smell.I will work up a load and see what happens. Thanks for all your inputs.

With not wanting to be rude..may I add this?

When my neighbour also stocks replacement eyes in his roof space is when I'll start using his "found" powders.

If it is MY powder I've had for ten years. OK.

Problem is do you KNOW its 4350 in that canister? What if he was using a Lyman 55, with maybe what looks the same but is much faster burning? Didn't have a canister, so dumped in an empty 4350 canister?

It upsets to see money, literally "go up in smoke"...but I will NEVER use secondhand powder from somebody else. With one exception: Hercules Bullseye. Because it is the fastest powder so you can't in error overload with a faster powder.

For the risk you run it isn't worth the cost.

Enfield,I have been contemplating the pros and cons of using these powders, and have decided that the risk isn't worth destroying a rifle, or worse, than betting that these powders are O.K. to use. I did load 10 rounds of 30-06, 5 with old powder and 5 with newer powder. Without adjusting the powder dispenser,the new powder came out a full two grains heavier. IMO, the old powder has changed composition some. I am going to burn it in the pit.

I'd rather seen it used ( carefully ) for it's intended purpose.
Years ago my foreman got his hands on old hand me down powder and he didn't want to trust it in his fine huntin irons, so he tried it in his homemade steel cannon. Split the barrel open like bad bicycle ineer tube!
Luckily no one lost any flesh.

Did you fire the two groups of ammo and compare their velocity?

quote:

Originally posted by prplbkrr:
Enfield,I have been contemplating the pros and cons of using these powders, and have decided that the risk isn't worth destroying a rifle, or worse, than betting that these powders are O.K. to use. I did load 10 rounds of 30-06, 5 with old powder and 5 with newer powder. Without adjusting the powder dispenser,the new powder came out a full two grains heavier. IMO, the old powder has changed composition some.

The weight difference between 2 different lots doesn't mean squat and really is not all that un-common. I admit that 2 grains is quite a bit but just last week I used up a can of IMR 4831. Opened up a second one and it dumped over a full grain lighter. Both were bought new but a year apart from each other. Had the same with H-4895.

I once called the engineers at Hodgdon to see if it was safe to store powder for long periods of time. He said, "If it smelled normal, it's probably good. Just be sure to keep it in a dry, air conditioned place. If it smells acidic, dispose of it. Due to spontanious combustion, it is possible for old powder to become dangerous to store for long periods of time."

Good advice, but don't panic. Keep in mind that one gallon of stored gasoline is equal to 20 sticks of dynamite.

quote:

Originally posted by prplbkrr:
Enfield,I have been contemplating the pros and cons of using these powders, and have decided that the risk isn't worth destroying a rifle, or worse, than betting that these powders are O.K. to use. I did load 10 rounds of 30-06, 5 with old powder and 5 with newer powder. Without adjusting the powder dispenser,the new powder came out a full two grains heavier. IMO, the old powder has changed composition some. I am going to burn it in the pit.

Sprinkle some on your potted plants. All that nitrogen will REALLY give them a boost. Just don't use too much. And water them well.

I used to recommend sprinkling on the lawn, but was informed that if any of it runs off, it promotes too much algae growth and stuff.

It is also good for entertaining the neighborhood kids and for showing what smokeless powder can do (10-15 grains will make a 2-second flame about a foot high) if you pour a little pile in an old frying pan and put a flame to it.

Lost Sheep

Geez, how much powder were you planning to dump on your lawn?????

I think you are doing the wise thing by dumping this old powder. Considering that the other cans had deteriorated powder in them, that tells me that all of the powder stored in the attic had aged.

As gunpowder ages it releases NOx gas and the grain deteriorates unevenly. This can and does create burn rate instability.

quote:

Nitrocellulose-base propellants are essentially unstable materials that decompose on aging with the evolution of oxides of nitrogen. The decomposition is autocatalytic and can lead to failure of the ammunition or disastrous explosions.

ROLE OF DIPHENYLAMINE AS A STABILIZER IN PROPELLANTS;
ANALYTICAL CHEMISTRY OF DIPHENYLAMINE IN PROPELLANTS

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/783499.pdf

Heat, as you can see in the report, will age gunpowder



I had surplus IMR 4895 that did not smell bad, it had a neutral smell, but it gave the occasional “funny” retort and the occasional sticky case. I did not know these were symptoms of old powder, but it was. I finally tossed the stuff when loaded ammunition starting cracking case necks, in the can.

I went through all my American Rifleman magazines from the 60’s onward, there are accounts of gun blowups with old surplus WW2 era ammunition.

If this was old gas that you put in your lawn mower you could tell it by the banging and knocking, and you would know that it was bad for the engine.

Don’t feed expensive rifles old powder that is suspect. It is not worth the risk, small as it might be.

For what it is worth...
I hunt with and shoot often a vintage .600 nitro express double rifle. The load that shoots best is 160 grains of IMR 4831 and the 900-grain bullet exits the barrel at 1900fps which is what it was made to do in 1914.

I tried some old IMR 4831 and loaded 160 grains and shot at 2150 fps and it hurt! The rifle was very stiff to open. The best explanation given to me was over the years some moisture evaporated from the powder and my 160 grain charge was now 10-12 grains more by weight due to the loss of the weight of the moisture.

Lesson learned is that I still shoot old powder but in reduced loads for plinking and fun, never in maximum loads.

By the way, while I don't know the year of the powder used, the price on the can was less than two dollars.

Cheers,
Cal

This is all kinda confusing to me. Up until recently, they were still selling WW2 milsup powder. Why didn't we hear about numerous cases of rifle blow ups and folks running around with hot, smoking shards of steel sticking out of their heads.
I have always been under the impression that old powder (not contaminated or such) lost power not gained it. And, on a couple of ocassions, have proofed old milsup powder against new mfg'd stuff and that was the case.

quote:

This is all kinda confusing to me. Up until recently, they were still selling WW2 milsup powder. Why didn't we hear about numerous cases of rifle blow ups and folks running around with hot, smoking shards of steel sticking out of their heads.

People do blow up firearms all the time. Few accounts are posted, even fewer people make the correct linkages.

People find explanations from what they know and what the community accepts as an answer. Let us remember the Salem witch trails. To test whether the accused were witches, they baked biscuits, saturated the biscuits with the accused urine and fed the biscuits to dogs. The dogs ate the biscuits and died in agony. Back in the 1600’s they did not know about ergot (a type of mold poisoning) so the obvious answer was witchcraft. http://customers.hbci.com/~wenonah/history/ergot.htm Innocent people were hung. But only innocent in terms of what we know today. Debate with a 15th Century court about ergot poisoning and they would surely hang you.

Obviously there are limits to the amount of information you can get out of web postings, the things that are reported are lacking lots of details, and even if they were conducted in a labratory it would never be enough to convince a moron-skeptic such as HughEstipido, but I think these accounts show that old gunpowder in old ammunition has its risks:

Garand Blowup with WWII ball

http://www.thehighroad.org/sho...7870113&postcount=13

I have an old shooting buddy who some years ago was shooting some WWII ball (don’t know whose) but his M-1 was disassembled in a rather rapid fashion. He was lucky only his pride was hurt. He said he took a round apart and found rust looking dust along with the powder. Bad powder. Just sayin…..The op rod can be rebuilt which might be a good way to go. Op Rods are getting harder to find and when you find one a premium price is required so it seems. Garands require grease. I’m not sure if you are aware of this. If you are, please no offence taken


Garand Blowup with old US ammunition.

http://www.socnet.com/showthread.php?p=1344088

There was a thread on another forum titeled “What’s in your ammo can” and many guys had old surpluss ammo so I told this story. Ty (arizonaguide) asked that I come put it here also so here it is boys, draw your own conclutions.

Back in the mid 80s my Dad and a bunch of us went shooting in Arizona. Dad had a couple thousand rounds of WWII surplus .30M1 (30-06) ammo that looked great on the outside cut his M1 in half in his hands. He was kneeling with elbow on knee when the first round of this ammo went BOOM! We were all pelted with sand and M1 shrapnel.

When the dust cleared Dad was rolling around on his back with buttstock in one hand, for stock in the other, barrel and receiver hanging by the sling around his arm trying to yell “mortar” thinking he was back on Okinawa in battle. The blast had removed his ear muffs, hat, glasses, and broke the headlight in my truck 15 feet away but Dad was only shook up and scratched a bit once he got his wits back. It sheared off the bolt lugs, blew open the receiver front ring, pushed all the guts out the bottom of the magazine, and turned the middle of the stock to splinters.

After a couple hours of picking up M1 shrapnel we headed to the loading bench and started pulling bullets. Some of the powder was fine, some was stuck together in clumps, and some had to be dug out with a stick. It didn’t smell and was not dusty like powder usuley is when it’s gone bad. Put it in a pie tin and light it and it seemed a tad fast but not so you would think it could do that, wasent like lighting a pistol powder even. He had 2000 rounds of this stuff and nun of us were in any mood to play with it much after what we watched so it all went onto a very entertaining desert bon fire. I got the M1 splinters when Dad died last year and will post pix here below for your parousal and entertainment.

Anyway, I no longer play with any ammo I am not 100% sure has always been stored properly . . . cheap shooting ain’t worth the risk to me anymore! I still buy surpluss if the price in right but I unload and reload it with powder I am sure of or just use the brass.

She was a good shooting servasable Winchester M1 before this.

quote:

I have always been under the impression that old powder (not contaminated or such) lost power not gained it. And, on a couple of ocassions, have proofed old milsup powder against new mfg'd stuff and that was the case

That is a true statement, the total energy content of gunpowder decreases in time. But, as the grain deteriorates, it deteriorates unevenly, leading to burn rate instability. What you want is a nice smooth pressure curve, not something that is irregular. The irregularities can and have amplified the pressures waves. Another thing, double based powders have nitroglycerine (NG) in them. That NG migrates to the surface, due to water in the air I was told, and that makes the surface NG rich. So when while the energy content of the grain is less, you will have a ignition pressure spike with old double based powder.