I've been reloading for about 10 years and have always followed manuals. Just recently I converted my 308 to 338 Federal. Along with a few recommendations, I'm using a slightly faster powder than usual and getting a higher velocities, equal to Federal specs.

I'm using Lapua 308 brass ran through a Redding FL die with expander button, Federal match primers, 44grs of RL7 and 185gr TSX bullets. That was the max charge I used where I achieved 2800fps but had loose pockets. I've recently backed off to 43.5grs.

My question is, can I have loose pockets but easy bolt lift and extraction? Cycling the empties was effortless, but I noticed troubles when I reseated new primers, they go in way too easy.


thanks for the input

quote:

My question is, can I have loose pockets but easy bolt lift and extraction?

Yes. I've had cases that I felt no bolt lift or extraction problems that I could push a new primer in with my finger. You do not have to have all the pressure signs to have a high pressure issue.

If I had loose pockets I would consider more than a half grain. The Alliant site max load for a 200gr with RL7 is 36.5 for the 225 it is 35. Even with a 185 I would guess you are WAY over pressure.

The Case Heads may be a bit soft on that Lot, but, your Load is too HOT for them. You need to back off a couple of grains to get longer case life.

The next Lot may or may not be the same.

Best of luck to you.

quote:

If I had loose pockets I would consider more than a half grain.

Darn right.....make it 2 1/2 grains!

I just checked my primer pockets from my 458WM and after firing 50 rds at an average of 2100fps,all my primer pockets are loose and some won't hold a primer.

quote:

Originally posted by beretta96:
I've been reloading for about 10 years and have always followed manuals. Just recently I converted my 308 to 338 Federal. Along with a few recommendations, I'm using a slightly faster powder than usual and getting a higher velocities, equal to Federal specs.

I'm using Lapua 308 brass ran through a Redding FL die with expander button, Federal match primers, 44grs of RL7 and 185gr TSX bullets. That was the max charge I used where I achieved 2800fps but had loose pockets. I've recently backed off to 43.5grs.

My question is, can I have loose pockets but easy bolt lift and extraction? Cycling the empties was effortless, but I noticed troubles when I reseated new primers, they go in way too easy.


thanks for the input

I think I would look for something a bit slower burning than Reloader 7 for that combo.

Pressures that cause primer pockets to expand within just a few firings are, by definition, excessive. The absolute pressure that causes such expansion may vary with the hardness and alloy of the case head, but since the brass case is the weakest portion of the pressure containment system, it is the relative pressure that counts, not the absolute.

And yes, primer pockets can expand excessively without the bolt exhibiting any lift resistance.

Some shooters might be willing to sacrifice a case to only one or two firings, reasoning that the only loss is of the case and that a significant margin of safety in the strength of the action remains. However, this ignores the fact that a load that causes a loose primer pocket is only a small pressure spike away from causing a primer or case rupture -- such rupture presenting the hazard of injury to the shooter and damage to the firearm.

There are a thousand ways to read the "tea leaves" of pressure. The one always dependable indicator is when your primers reseat with little or no resistance, you've exceeded the reasonable limits for that load.

Yep, and that would make using the same few cases over and over for near max load testing, so you find out what's happening to the brass quicker. Some even take reloading gear into the field/range.

quote:

Originally posted by beretta96:
I've been reloading for about 10 years and have always followed manuals. Just recently I converted my 308 to 338 Federal. Along with a few recommendations, I'm using a slightly faster powder than usual and getting a higher velocities, equal to Federal specs.

I'm using Lapua 308 brass ran through a Redding FL die with expander button, Federal match primers, 44grs of RL7 and 185gr TSX bullets. That was the max charge I used where I achieved 2800fps but had loose pockets. I've recently backed off to 43.5grs.

My question is, can I have loose pockets but easy bolt lift and extraction? Cycling the empties was effortless, but I noticed troubles when I reseated new primers, they go in way too easy.


thanks for the input

Loose pockets are not necessarily accompanied by difficult bolt operation or smeared headstamps! It can also be due to soft brass.

I don't know about Lapua brass, but in the not-too-distant past, Norma brass was softer than either Remington or Winchester, and could NOT be loaded to as high pressures.

I think RL 7 is a bit fast for the .338/'08-.338 Federal. I've had excellent results in the .358 Win. with WW748, and would bet that it would work well in the .338 Federal too.....

thanks guys, I see Benchmark is only two steps slower than rl7 and near the same velocity according th Barnes. I don't know why I didn't pick that up before.

thanks again.

Loose primer pockets don't neccesarily mean your load is too hot nor that your brass is too soft. Your brass could just be tired. How many times has it been reloaded? How many times have you trimmed it? If you've only fired it a couple of times before the pockets opened up, then you are running it pretty hard.
By the time you get hard bolt lift, your pressure has been off the chart for a while.

If I plug 338 Federal, 185 TSX, 44 gr Re7, 2.8" OAL into Quickload, it says 93,613 psi

With the 1892 7x57mm Mauser case head design made with full hard cartridge brass, the primer pockets usually get loose with what Quickload thinks is 67,000 ~ 70,000 psi.

The 338 Federal is IIRC 62,000 psi SAAMI registration, to avoid the .270's problems with 65kspi in production ammo getting into any production gun. Obviously handloaders can do 65 kpsi in an individual gun.

Given the 62 kpsi constraint, Quickload says 38 gr for Re7 and that is 200 fps slower than can be had with 48.9 gr W748 or 47.9 gr H335 or 44.4 gr H322.


What does it all mean?
You put in too much Re7 with the 44 gr.
Reduce the charge to 38 gr or use a slower powder.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I just checked my primer pockets from my 458WM and after firing 50 rds at an average of 2100fps,all my primer pockets are loose and some won't hold a primer.

How many loads per case before the pockets got sloppy? Have you ordered a new barrel for the CZ yet?

Just one loading.The barrel is fine,it's the feeding that is giving me problems.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Just one loading.The barrel is fine,it's the feeding that is giving me problems.

You have BIGGER problems than Feeding if your Primer Pockets are Loose after " 1 " shot.

Isn't it normal to have loose pockets after on firing in big bores?

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Isn't it normal to have loose pockets after on firing in big bores?

NO...IT'S NOT

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Just one loading.The barrel is fine,it's the feeding that is giving me problems.

I hope for your sake that you are just being a troll otherwise you have major problems.

Mike

Everyone should know by now that shootaway is a troll.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Isn't it normal to have loose pockets after on firing in big bores?

Shootaway, Shootaway, Shootaway...

Well..., yes it is normal for that to happen - if you don't know what you are doing.

I would have thought ( ) with all the "expert" barrel life information you've provided the Board, that your Primer Pockets would last 50-100 loads.

Loose Primer Pockets make feeding rifles very expensive, un-safe, or possibly both.
-----

A Rule of Thumb I go by - Any indication of Excessive Pressure - is an indication of Excessive Pressure.

Best of luck to all of you.

quote:

Originally posted by stillbeeman:
Everyone should know by now that shootaway is a troll.

and here I thought he was just retarded.....or Canadian or something.

easy on the canadian jokes, don't group us all together, I'm canadian, he's from quebec. big difference!

Is quickload that accurate, could I be that much over max psi? Benchmark is only two powders slower and using virtually the same charge, could it make that much difference?

The data I'm using, although not book data, comes from a Charlie Sisk article I read. Could he be that far off as well?

I started off I believe at 41grs, and all was well and slowly loaded up to his max charge. All primer seating was excellent until I reached the 44grs. Accuracy was fine, velocity spread was fine as well.

I will try Benchmark but have to wait a couple of days until it comes in. I have 20 rounds loaded with 43.5grs, I guess I'm pulling bullets now.

thanks for the help,

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
and here I thought he was just retarded.....or Canadian or something.

No need to insult the residents of Canuckistan. Shootaway is doing a fine job by himself.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burn gunpowder."

quote:

Is quickload that accurate, could I be that much over max psi? Benchmark is only two powders slower and using virtually the same charge, could it make that much difference

Loadtech calls 39grs of RL7 and the 185 62,000+/- assuming an OAL of 2.86" and 43grs of Benchmark for the same pressure. velocities from a 22" about 300fps les than yours.

With RL7 the program raises the pressure about 2250/gr so add 5 grs you are in the 73,000+ range and loose primers.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Just one loading.The barrel is fine,it's the feeding that is giving me problems.

Now I am just going to guess that you have not worked up to the load you are shooting. I am also going to go way way out on a limb and suggest that you choose a powder that has a slower burn rate than what you are currently using. If this does not work I would change bullets not only in construction/ mfg... but also weight.
I think I saw you post that you are trying barnes tsx's ( can't remember the weight) you can drop down with the barnes to a lighter weight and get similar performance to a heavier lead copper jacketed bullet.

Canadian beer accept no substitutes!

I recently had a custom rifle chambered in my favorite .256 Newton...I used the same load (hot, but not crazy)
that I shot in my original Newton Rifle...new brass...primers were gone after firing...primer pockets expanded so
much I couldn't reload even once more again.
Reason ,I figure, is the new chambering in a modern barrel caused high pressure..whereas the slow easy oval bore type rifling of the original Newton digested the load with ease.
Answer: Same as I would give you...back off at least 2 gr. of powder if going to use the same powder.
El Deguello is good to listen to...

Best Regards,

Tom from Cody

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

A Rule of Thumb I go by - Any indication of Excessive Pressure - is an indication of Excessive Pressure.

Ah, could you expand on that abit!

quote:

Originally posted by Don Fischer:

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

A Rule of Thumb I go by - Any indication of Excessive Pressure - is an indication of Excessive Pressure.

Ah, could you expand on that abit!

Hey Don, Sure! Just remember, it is what " I " go by for my use as I'm approaching a SAFE MAX Load. And this is the normal progression that I'm looking for the Indications of Excessive Pressure as I handle the Case.

These are all observed during actual Load Development:
1. Excessive Case Head Expansion(CHE).
2. Excessive Pressure Ring Expansion(PRE).
3. Sticky Bolt Lift.
4. Flat Primers.

Once the Cases are Resized, I also observe and do a subjective mental comparison of:
5. How much the Primer Pocket "shortens" in comparison to a Mid-Range Load.
6. How much the Case "lengthens" in comparison to a Mid-Range Load.
7. Loose Primer Pockets after just a few loads(5-7).


I don't physically measure #5-#6, just go by how much Brass is removed. If the Whitetail Design Primer Pocket Uniformer or the Lee Case Length Gauge/Trimmer just barely removes a very small bit of Brass, I consider that better than a Load where they are removing a lot of Brass. But, these can be affected by how closely the Chamber and Reloading Die match as well as the actual Case Design.

And the Lee Hand Held Primer Seater gives me an indication of how snug the Primer Pocket happens to be. Doesn't take long to get a feel for this.

If there is more, I can't think of them at the moment.

Best of luck to you.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
If there is more, I can't think of them at the moment.

You haven't mentioned my most used test of trying the case back in the chamber. Over the years I believe I've found easy bolt lift yet cases suddenly tight to go back in.

Sounds a bit like pre che and thee to me.

quote:

You haven't mentioned my most used test of trying the case back in the chamber. Over the years I believe I've found easy bolt lift yet cases suddenly tight to go back in.

JAL,

I have been doing that since the 1960s.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:
...You haven't mentioned my most used test of trying the case back in the chamber. Over the years I believe I've found easy bolt lift yet cases suddenly tight to go back in.

Hey JAL, What do you believe that tells you?

quote:

Sounds a bit like pre che and thee to me.

Depending on the Cartridge, the Pressure may not be high enough for CHE to work properly. But PRE always works. That is why I recommend it to everyone, especially those just beginning to Reload.

Hey JAL, What do you believe that tells you?

I am not JAL but....pressue is high.

For about 40 years I have rechambered the fired case. What JAL says is right.

Mike

If I were to measure case head expansion and pressure ring expansion, where would be the place to measure? Could I compare this to a once fired case or new case?

As far as case trimming goes, I use the Lee stuff, and the cutter just barely touched the case, didn't really remove anything.

quote:

You haven't mentioned my most used test of trying the case back in the chamber. Over the years I believe I've found easy bolt lift yet cases suddenly tight to go back in

I've never had this issue caused by pressure. I have had it from an oval shaped chamber.

Beretta96 When I'm working up a load I will measure each case before and after firing. I use a digital Micrometer. When I measure before firing I reset the zero to the head dia. Then when I measure after firing it gives a quick indication of expansion. No math involved.

quote:

I've never had this issue caused by pressure. I have had it from and oval shaped chamber.

Certainly that is one reason but even then a lower pressure load will chamber easy......although it would be different if old brass was used.

But I am with JAL here.....my first test is to rechamber the fired case. I can't speak for JAL but in my case it is normally with new brass that has been fired.

Mike

Beretta96,

To add to Paul K's posting...what you are looking for is expansion of the solid head of the case.

Measuring the body of the case is a waste of time. If the cae is rimless (270, 308 etc) measure just in front of extractor groove. If a belted case measure the lower part of the belt. Some belted cases (Norma/Wby eg.)don't have the solid head extending above the belt. Thus if you measured across the top of the belt you would in be measuring the case body.

Personally, I think the easiest way to measure case head expansion is by the primer pocket. If the primer seats real easy after two shots then you are at the high end and depending on brass/rifle etc you might see ejector marks on the case head.

If the primer is still a reasonable fit after 5 shots....but noticeably easier to seat than in anew case.....then I would regard that as a top working load.

In a nutshell what you are trying to avoid is pressure that causes the brass to flow. The brass is the key point. You can have the world's strongest action and the world's most expensive pressure measuring equipment but it ain't worth shit if the brass is flowing.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by WbyPower:
Beretta96,

To add to Paul K's posting...what you are looking for is expansion of the solid head of the case.

Measuring the body of the case is a waste of time. ...

Hey Mike, Apparently we just approach this entire aspect differently. I find PRE to be the most accurate Pressure Indicator ever devised by mankind. And it will work on " every " Cartridge, even the old Low Pressure Cartridges.

I tend to agree with "Ramrod" concerning slipping the Case back in the Chamber, in that I don't see much value in it. I also agree with him it can be as simple as the Chamber not being Concentric. A lot of people believe this is attributable to the Chamber being somehow machined to an ovate shape - I seriously doubt it. But a perfectly Concentric Chamber can be screwed into an action, and due to various stresses that imposes on the Barrel, the Chamber will become ovate.

And it is also very possible the problem you and JAL are seeing is as simple as the Case Walls being "thinner" along one side. The Case will expand under Pressure moreso in the Thin spot and relax back to a non-concentric Outer Diameter.

And from what I've seen and experienced, it is a very rare situation when you get completely Concentric Cases. I've had a bunch of rifles over the years and have had very few Lots of Cases that good. I currently have only " 1 " combination of rifle and Cases that indicates completely Concentric PRE readings.

Now..., with all that said, if it works for you and JAL, I'm all for it.
-----

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta:
If I were to measure case head expansion and pressure ring expansion, where would be the place to measure? Could I compare this to a once fired case or new case?

Hey Beretta, You are in luck. Take a look at "How to measure CHE & PRE" and that will explain how I do it. If you simply follow the directions, you should have it working for you in a very short amount of time.

You absolutely must have a 0.0001" capable Micrometer. A 0.001" capable Caliper just isn't accurate enough.

Best of luck to you.

Hotcore; I take it PRE is pressure ring expansion, and it is the case expanding in the chamber under pressure. More expansion more pressure, until elastic limits are reached and the case stays oversize.

That can cause a heavy bolt lift.
That is also what you measure with PRE ???

So it should follow that if it's now oversize and in serious need of a FLS wouldn't it likely to be difficult to rechamber??

An actual example, loading up my .458 in half grain incruments to 0.5gr over book max.,
all ejected easily, the primers looked simular on the last few, BUT the 0.5gr over book max. was tight to rechamber.

So what I thought it was telling me was exactly what the reloading manual told me, and probably a crude way to measure PRE. ????

All advise read, even if rejected.

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:
Hotcore; I take it PRE is pressure ring expansion, and it is the case expanding in the chamber under pressure.

Hey JAL, Yes, that is correct.

quote:

More expansion more pressure, until elastic limits are reached and the case stays oversize.(EDIT: Moved the next sentence up here.)That is also what you measure with PRE ???

The PRE values are able to be read "prior" to the elastic limits being reached, as well as once they are reached.

I feel sure you are aware(but the Beginners might not be) that if a Case is sectioned lengthwise a person can see the "wedge" shaped portion where the Case Head begins it's taper down into becoming the Case Wall. The PRE is measured at this point. During Firing, the Case Wall Expands & Contracts as we all know. As the Pressure Increases, the Pressure Ring Increases as well and is read as PRE.

quote:

That can cause a heavy bolt lift.

Yes it can. It depends on the Intensity of the Load, how many times the Case has been fired(work-hardened), and what method of Resizing was used.

quote:

So it should follow that if it's now oversize and in serious need of a FLS wouldn't it likely to be difficult to rechamber??

Maybe, maybe not. If it is a new Case, it might Contract enough that you do not get the sticky reinsertation. Or, you might if the Cartridge or Chamber has the Ovate condition.

quote:

An actual example, loading up my .458 in half grain incruments to 0.5gr over book max.,
all ejected easily, the primers looked simular on the last few, BUT the 0.5gr over book max. was tight to rechamber.

So what I thought it was telling me was exactly what the reloading manual told me, and probably a crude way to measure PRE.????

As I mentioned before, if it works for you, I'm all for "you" using it.

If the Cartridge is rated for enough Pressure by SAAMI to Expand the Case Head, then CHE has the potential to Stop you from having to reach that Sticky Case condition.

PRE will allow you to watch the Pressure Increase and Stop at any point you desire in comparison to a Factory Load. So if a Factory Load causes stiff Bolt Lift, you can watch the PRE Increase and Stop prior to that Pressure Level, Stop at the same Pressure Level as Factory Ammo, or Stop beyond the Factory Pressure Level. PRE allows the Reloader to see what is happening as the Load is increased, which gives more control to the process.

quote:

All advise read, even if rejected.

That is exactly the same Method I use.

Best of luck to you.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Isn't it normal to have loose pockets after on firing in big bores?

Almost as normal as ruining a 7mm Rem. Mag. barrel with 70 shots! Hell NO! It is NOT normal to get loose primer pockets with 1 shot! IF my loads are too heavy to permit my cases to last for at least 10 rounds, I cut the load back!