The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading Capt. they be turned necks here!Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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| one of us |
With the forster I always turn in then fedd slowly out using the cam. The other trick is to rotate the case after the pilot is well started into the neck then tighten the collet while the case is turning. Don't tighten the collet before the pilot is in. Be sure to lube the pilot. Used properly the forster will do as good as any. I also like to run the brass into the sizer and over the expander at least twice before turning. Regards, Bill. | |||
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Hi Bill, Just got back from BC last week, the number plate says it all - "Beautiful British Columbia" I see you are but a hop and a skip from Fording Coal up at Elkford. We also visited the tar sand mines up in Alberta. Back to case neck turning, if the case neck is thick (as in VERY thick) I also use the reamer instead of the pilot. I also size and trim before I turn necks. If you are extremely finicky, you can set up the Forster trimmer to trim to length AND neck turn at the same time but I don't figger it is worth the candle. Cheers pete The Forster is a very good piece of kit, nowt wrong with it. ------------------ | |||
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Why turn necks, unless you have a zero tolerence chamber, otherwise your going to get about 2 loadings out of the brass as you will be making it expand more that it should with each firing....some turn it just enough to make it all level to the world, but thats a pure waste of brass and time.. ------------------ | |||
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Moderator |
quote: Hi Pete, you drove right past me! I am about 20 mins south of the mine. How was your trip? Did the sporting goods stores in Vanc. meet your expectations? | |||
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| one of us |
Ray, sometimes I wonder about you! If you turn your case necks to the proper thickness you will be working the brass less. Not more. I am now imagining the befuddled expression on your face so I'll explain. With your normal factory brass lets say you have a neck of .014" thickness. In a thirty cal this will give you a size over the bullet of .336. Now when you fire this in your rifle with it's neck of around .342 the brass will expand to that size and then spring back a bit ending up at say .340. Well that's only .004" expansion and proves your case right? Wrong. Now you take this brass and run it into your sizing die. A standard die will take the neck down to about .328. 12 thou. Then you will run an expander ball through it to bring it up to about 333 or 4. Sqeeze it down then expand it up. Now that's brass working. When turning you necks you will remove the expander ball from the die and size a case. You measure this and record the measurement. You then replace the expander ball and run the case through again. Now you set up your case turner to make the neck the same diameter as the sized unexpanded case +.001". Now when you fire the case it still expands to chamber size but when you size it in the die it gets squeezed down but the expander ball just brushes the inside of the neck and does not expand the neck because it doesn't have to. So in the end the brass gets worked less thean it did before. Ha! As a bonus your ammunition will be straighter and if the rifle is capable of showing the difference it will be more accurate. Now let me quickly add that I would never waste time turning necks on a 375 or 338 or one of those 9.3mm things. There really is no point. But on a good 6mm? you bet! Regards, Bill | |||
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Canuck, Sorry I didn't mean to mislead you, we didn't go near Elkford, although we would have loved to. One of my friends from Calgary told us about the place and showed it me on the map. I saw Elko is near there, I don't see East Kootenay is that a Region? We were supposed to visit Highland Valley Copper out at Logan Lake but that did not come off. The trip was fantastic. We did get to see the Canucks draw the Flames at one of the exhibition games in Vancouver. What a game! The closest I got to an outdoor place was a Canadian Tire in Fort McMurray! We were absolutely rushed off our feet flying around BC and Alberta. The tar sand mines are pretty impressive, we don't have anything approaching that scale in South Africa. I did get to go bear hunting with JJHack in Washington, but unfortunately we saw nothing apart from 2 mountain goats, and some ruffed grouse. Stunning scenery though. Cheers Pete | |||
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| <Eric Leonard> |
bill,that would be true if you had a match chamber.if not and your chamber in the neck area is .350 or bigger the neck is going to expand until it reaches the chamber.if you got .010 neck walls thats a .328 loaded round that when you fire it will come out of the gun at .348 or so for .020 of stretch. | ||
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| Moderator |
quote: Great stuff Bill. I learn something here every day. I have just been winging it with my 6.5, to get loaded rounds to .290. This procedure makes a lot more sense. Thanks. Canuck | |||
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| Moderator |
quote: Hi Pete, East Kootenay is a region, basically covering that portion of BC that is east of a line drawn between Creston and Golden. I actually live in the Elk Valley, which contains Fernie, Sparwood and Elkford. Glad you had a good trip. As I am sure you noticed, western Canada is a pretty tough place to live! Bears are a little tougher to find this time of the year. Spring is much easier. Good to hear you had a good time with JJ. Provided WWIII does not break out, I will be hunting with him in your neck of the woods next May. Take care, | |||
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Bill, You can wonder all you want, but check out Erics reply to you, I agree with him.... Bottom line is when you take brass away from the neck, then the case will expand more than before and that in turn works the brass more and if you work the brass more then it will not last as long, so I have no idea where your comming from... Unless one has a zero or near zero tolerence chamber, such as my 6x45, where in I have too outside neck ream or the cases will not chamber with any brass... This is pretty common knowledge, and I'm surprised at your response as I have always respected your opinnions on these things and I still do, but I must disagree with you on this one as you are full of prunes..... ------------------ | |||
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Ray and Eric, While it's true that the turned neck will expand to a greater extent on firing it is worked less in the sizing operation. This unless you happen to have a die that sizes the neck minimally. This is why, if you have a standard chambered rifle, youlet the die dimensions determine the final dimension of your turned necks. If, on the other hand you have a tight necked chamber then you turn your necks to be compatible with the chamber. With the use of a bushing type die you can of course minimize the working of the brass during the sizing operation. The point of neck turning is to achieve perfect neck concentricity because without this it is impossible to load perfectly straight ammunition. Even if you do have a standard dimensioned chamber an accurate rifle will show the difference between turned and unturned necks. Now the improvement realized by turning necks is generally a definite amount. That is to say it is not a percentage of group size but a fixed amount of improvement. From what I have seen (quite a bit) this amounts to about .150" or so at 100 yd. So if the old 06 is shooting 1 3/4" groups turning the case necks will likely improve those groups to 1 5/8. Big deal. But if your .308 target rifle is shooting at 1/2" then turning the case necks will possibly improve it to .350 which is a big deal in some circumstances. It seems that precision chambered rifles with a relatively tight throat (close to bullet diameter) are less tolerant of misaligned ammunition and so benefit more from neck turning. Sorry Ray. My original post was a little bit smartass although it was true! regards, Bill. | |||
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| <Eric Leonard> |
i got a 700VSSF in 308 with a jewel 1.5 ounce trigger and a 36XBR leupold scope. norma brass turned to about .0115 is extremely straight,but the rcbs dies will not size it enough to hold the bullet.the redding die with a .329 bushing works just fine,but after firing a case it measures close to .020 bigger than that. the gun is a little more accurate with turned necks,but from my experience the brass does not last as long. factory chambers are not a perfect world. | ||
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Bill, I have to disagree with you in so far as factory standard chambers and standard dies are concerned...A standard die will return a case to at or near factory specs. If you outside neck ream then you are adding a larger gap upon firing, and the die is still returning to the same size.... I can't help but believe your mind is clouded by spec-mania or something as you are just too knowledgable to be making these statments or we are on a different plane of thinking here and discussing different subjects.... Now with my 6x45 chamber I only have one thousands to play with and a special hand die made with the reamer..I can force the fired case in by hand to resize, zero tolerance or even shoot it without resizing sometimes...I must outside neck ream as factory 223 cases expanded will not chamber untill reamed... ------------------ | |||
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It was in the mid seventies that the concept of the fitted neck really became popular. The idea was to turn the necks to give only around 3 or 4 ten thousandths clearance (diametrical) and then not have to size the cases. I had a pretty good shooting 6PPC at the time and had two different Bonanza dies. One sized the neck to .263 and the other to .259. I made up two batches of brass. One batch was fitted to the rifle chamber which was .264. These cases measured .2635 with a bullet seated. The other brass measured .261 over the bullet and these were sized in the small die. I shot both batches throughout the season and at the end of the year the average group was essentially the same with both batches. Of course neither neck was a loose as the usual factory chamber. I now generally plan on sizing my brass because it's easier and I like easy! I shot for a while a Rem 700 Varminter in 308 with a factory chamber which was a very good shooter. With neck sized brass the turned necks were good for about 1/8 inch improvement. If the brass was full length sized though the difference was less though still noticable. In this rifle the main advantage to the turned necks was as previously stated, the elimination of the expander ball as a factor. This improved the concentricity of the loaded rounds. Again I have to agree with one thing for sure. Unless the rifle is capable of near BR level accuracy one would be hard pressed to see any difference. On the other hand properly done the neck turning will at least do no harm. The brass will expand to the same OD as before and the die will reduce it to the same OD asbefore. The only difference is whether or not the expander expands the neck or not. In other words there is a certain amount of expansion and compression that takes place it just takes place at different times (firing or sizing). I promise to say no more on this subject (a collective sigh of relief from the readers)! Regards, Bill. | |||
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| <R. A. Berry> |
O.K., Bill, Now you are even. You got Ray on the pillar bedding. He got you on the neck turning. Now shake hands and get ready for the next round.  ------------------ | ||
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| one of us |
Ok guys.....now back to the original post question. I'm going to have to disagree with the use of the Forster case trimmer as a neck turner(with it's attachment). I've had this set-up since the mid-1970's. In the later 1980's I acquired a "Ferguson's" run-out fixture. Through the use of this fixture I found that the turned case neck-wall thickness run-out was, many times, greater than the unturned case. This was due to: The collet not being EXACTLY in alignment with the mandrel. The mandrel not being a PERFECT fit to the case neck. And lastly, and maybe most importantly, if you ridgedly fix BOTH ends of the case(with the collet on one end, and the fixed mandrel on the other), you are assuming that the case is PERFECTLY straight(i.e. that the case neck opening is axially in the center of the case head).....they are almost always NOT!! My favorite neck-turner is the K&M tool, with it's carbide mandrel. Also needed is their Expandiron tool with mandrels. Hope this helps.....at least a little bit! Have 17, Will Travel | |||
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| <gone hunting> |
now the results Shilen 6mmx284, .100" improvement. Remington 40X 22x243imp, no change Sako 22/250imp, .075" improvement Remington .223, .275" improvement Winchester 300win mag, no change total neck runout is less then .0005 ------------------ | ||
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| one of us |
Kevin, The Forster setup will turn case necks perfectly but as with all such tools the operator can have a lot of influence on the results. You are right in pointing out the importance of a good fitting mandrel. If the mandrel doesn't fit well then either it must be replaced or the expander ball in the die reduced in size to give a tight fit on the pilot. Any problem with misalignment is best handled by the technique of inserting the pilot into the case prior to tightening down the collet. I first started using the Forster tool back in the seventies and had no trouble working to within .0001 or2. I still use it. I have found that it is possible to screw up with the hand held units as well. Again technique is everything. The best (though tedious) way I've turned case necks is to press them onto a mandrel and turn them on the lathe.That power feed is hard to beat! Regards, Bill. | |||
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Bill, I still don't think so. Friend Of The 17 | |||
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| <gone hunting> |
i use a Sinclair case gage with a .0005 Sterret dail. checking manderal runout gives me a .0000 reading my cases are all sized with Redding or Forrester BR dies. Good brass in good brass out. for me to get a .100" reduction in group size from my DGA is a 50% improvement. not many of those to be had with that rifle! ------------------ | ||
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It has been our experience here that necks turned to die size do not require trimming to length nearly as often as those which are not turned. Small calibres (.17 to .284) are more noticeable than larger ones. I always thought this was because we were then working the brass less???Mark | |||
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| <Don Krakenberger> |
I NECK TURN with both the sinclair and a k&m turner. Most my experience is with my 300 wby. (good old factory gun with lots of freebore) After neck turning I can make loaded ammo with full length dies that's consistantly under .002". My gun really shoots great with this ammo. I'M NOT SURE if it makes a big difference or not. It is possible that another benefit to neck turning is extremely consistant tension. Every bullet I seat feels exactly the same over and over again. (no rough spots --the same tension from when the bullet enters the case mouth till it's fully seated. With an electric drill I can turn about 100 cases in under and hour and that's why i do it. Re-the "overworking" I've loaded these rounds at least 5 times with no problems whatsoever. | ||
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Kevin, Bill L, It is with great displeasure that I must agree with Bill Leeper on the Forester RA, ------------------ | |||
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| <sure-shot> |
I agree with Ray in that unless you have a tight neck chamber, neck turning is a waste of time. Instead why not sort your cases by neck variance? Sinclair sells a tool with a dial indicater which works real swift. I sort my cases as follows: .001 Load development and bench shooting .002 Hunting loads .003 Culls - save for foul shots, pressure check loads. I file a small notch in the rim. In a typical lot of Rem brass I usually wind up with less than 10% .003. I have found no difference in accuracy between .001 and .002 brass but to be safe I delegate the .001 brass for load development. I don't weigh my cases either I have found no difference in accuracy using this practice. sure-shot | ||
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| <gone hunting> |
rifles are like women, fickel and mostly ill tempered. but if you feed them well and buy them the right cloths thier both easier to get along with. while 3 of my 4 varmint rifles have tite match chambers the stock Rem 223 groups shrunk the most of all and the 40x with the titest chamber had no change at all. for me neck turning is a tension thing. ------------------ | ||
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Canuck
I am kinda surprised that a mining tour would not stop in the Elk Valley. We have 5 large scale open pit coal mines in close proximity of each other. I guess coal was not on the agenda?