35 Whelen, new Norma brass, Lee dies, Horniday bullets. I notticed the case necks look like a snake swallowed and egg. The dies, without the button, size the brass 0.009" smaller than the bullet. That seems like too much to me. The original expander button was 0.352", rough as acobb too. I made a larger expander button, 0.354", smooth as glass. The new button gives about 0.004" smaller than the bullet, the case neck bulge was better looking but not real even. I then made a new seating plug that actually fit the die with a push fit. At this point, the cartridges look pretty good. The run out is about 0.005 on the worst cartridges. I measured with a V-block and dial indicator.

I never actually measured any of my handloaded cartridges for bullet runout. I grabbed some Korean 30-06 ball ans checked it. It was better than my handloads. Hmm.....

Is the .005" runout a concearn? What should I be getting with new brass? Is it the cheapo dies causing the problem? Am I getting worked up about nothing?

Thanks

First of all I think 0.009 is too much to start with. Maybe 0.002 inch neck tension is more a normal value in bolt rifles. Maybe 0.003 - 0.004 in a lever and then add a crimp. Something along those lines would create less case distortion and bulge while still holding the bullet well.

The Lees and I never got along either. I really have had the best results with the Redding dies . Just my experience.

I also prefer to see 0.001 -0.002 runout and less when I can. That 0.005 is probably an upper limit in my opinion.

All that said I use the Sinclair runout tooling . Once though Sinclair made a statement to the effect that runout on new cases was not applicable . Hmmmm . . .ok. But I still do measure some of the new loaded rounds as well as some of the factory rounds for comparison purposes.

I can say that the single best tool I believe I ever added that helped me make "straighter" ammunition is the Redding Competition Seater. The mic part is good, but the best part is the sleeve seater inside the die.

I can't say that it always shoots better or that I always shoot better with its use. But I can say that I am much more satisfied with the overall finished product and I believe it helps. One bad side of it was that after I tried the Redding Seater I had to get one for all my calibers.

Of course it is a whole process, but that addition sure improved the process for me.

Maybe you can fire a few of them versus some factory or more concentric rounds and see what the differences are. If they all go in to one hole then it is good enough.

Find a good hard, flat smooth table top like formica or glass or marble.

Roll your loaded rounds on the table top.

With a little effort you can see .003 TIR.
Anything more is too much.

If you can see the bullets precess your ammo has too much run out.


I just had another thought

RCBS TRIM dies are usually about .010 larger than the size die in the neck.
You could call RCBS and verify the trim die neck diameter. If it works you can use it for a sizer. You might have to make a cap to mount the decapping stem or do like I do - use a Lee hand punch to knock out the primers.

OR

Find a .35 Whelen die with a large top bushing and have it honed by a professional.

I would recommend that you buy a Redding or RCBS from the factory and ask them what the diameter is. If it is too small ask them if they can hone it to your size.

You could also get a 30-06 die bored out and honed or bored out and have a bushing installed.

When you search for dies on google put in your key words followed by -Lee

You both confirmed my thoughts. I have bought Lee dies in the past and they were OK. I guess my Lee days are over. Apparently quality varies.

I would open up the neck on the size die, except. The threads on the expander/decapper in are smaller than the case neck. It is tough to get in there and keep it parallel. I may try with a tool post grinder.

The die is too hard to cut with a file. Can I anneal it? If I could I could use and expansion reamer. Are they case hardened or hard all the way though?

I have a bunch of 30-06 sizers of various makes and ages. Maybe one of them would make a good doner.

Or I could just call up a vendor and buy some good dies!

Having done some runout testing that proved inconclusive (i.e. min runout not necessarily best accuracy and conversely, max runout not necessarily worst accuracy), it seems to me that other factors need to be considered when judging accuracy. Simply stated shooting accuracy is the final arbiter; whatever works best, works best. IMHO

quote:

Having done some runout testing that proved inconclusive (i.e. min runout not necessarily best accuracy and conversely, max runout not necessarily worst accuracy), it seems to me that other factors need to be considered when judging accuracy. Simply stated shooting accuracy is the final arbiter; whatever works best, works best. IMHO

Years ago I worried about run out even before I took the load to the range. I didn't do a step by step comparison but I had some large run out numbers that made a large home on the target and minimum run out loads that wouldn't group period. Unless something is off enough that I can see it easily I don't worry about it.

Shoot them if they work why worry about run out?. If you are shooting BR that is another issue.

You can worry yourself to death over all the "little" reloading issues. If it shoots well in my rifle I no longer care about most of them and don't even test for them or preform them on my brass.

Your Lee die has a 1/8-27 National Pipe Thread
in the top.
To get access to the neck you might be able to hone it from the sizing cavity. Otherwise carbide turning tools and boring bars will cut through the hardened skin and allow you to cut off the top of the die if needed. The dies are case hardened.

The Lee dies work ok in many applications. there are some that do not work well more from a crummy design standpoint that from poor workmanship.

My first experience with runout was with a large quantity of USGI 30-06 ammo that shot fairly poor in my M700.
I sorted it by rolling it on a table top.
The no run out ammo shot really well.
The wobbly ammo was terrible.

quote:

Originally posted by Scota4570:
You both confirmed my thoughts. I have bought Lee dies in the past and they were OK. I guess my Lee days are over. Apparently quality varies.

I would open up the neck on the size die, except. The threads on the expander/decapper in are smaller than the case neck. It is tough to get in there and keep it parallel. I may try with a tool post grinder.

The die is too hard to cut with a file. Can I anneal it? If I could I could use and expansion reamer. Are they case hardened or hard all the way though?

I have a bunch of 30-06 sizers of various makes and ages. Maybe one of them would make a good doner.

Or I could just call up a vendor and buy some good dies!

You`re probably seeing the difference in neck thickness in your brass from one side to the other. The bullet can`t be straight in the cartridge if it is off set in relation to the outer case wall.

I made an ajustable hone. I honed the neck portion of the die to make the ID of the neck 0.354" without the expander ball. It took a long time with #320 grit. The expander ball does not do much, it only brings the ID up about a 0.001". The final bullet fit is very nice, about perfect to me. It is about 0.002 below bullet dimeter. The dies work much better, the bullet run out is much less. The brass won't be worked excessivly too.

Good job. Way to stick with it and sort it out. The trick is always to know your own equipment and process.

Excellent way to make the best out your wobbly ammo.

I never once measured bullet run out hasn't effected any of the hundreds of deer and big game animals 10s of thousands of P dogs and other varmints I have shot.

I guess I have been to busy shooting to worry about it.