The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading Speed over accuracy / accuracy over speed?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Speed over accuracy / accuracy over speed? | Login/Join |
| One of Us |
I'm wondering which is better for hunting out to 350yrds or so. 1"-1.25" groups near 3000fps or .5" groups at around 2750fps. Cartridge in question is a .257R. I've been messing with the 115 ballistic tip and H100V near max, and also shot a bit of RL 19 at 43-43.5grn. Both are accurate enough for hunting, but for distances out to 300-350yrds, which would you go with? | ||
|
| One of Us |
If you are hunting coyote or larger animals and miss with the faster load then the slower more "accurate" load isn't going to help. Some will disagree with the usual; "the deer will never know the difference" statement. That may or may not be the case but at 350 yards you'll want all the retained velocity and energy available, especially for larger game such as mule deer. The accuracy with the faster load is there for all practical purposes for hunting. Why have 25-35 performance out of your .257R for the sake of a small percieved measure of accuracy? Suggest you put 6" targets from 200 to 350 yards and shoot with both loads and see which you "hit" best with. If you "hit" consistently with the faster load then the answer is there. Larry Gibson | |||
|
| One of Us |
Great suggestion. I used a load last deer season 43grn RL19 117grn Interlock at around 2700fps and am looking for more steam at that distance and flatter trajectory, although the two deer I shot at 300yrds did bite the dust, bullets exited, etc.. | |||
|
| one of us |
Larry makes a good point. Your accuracy at 300 yards may be different than at 100 yards. But two things are advantageous about the faster, but apparenlty less accurate, load: It will require less holdover/under adjustment for distance, and it will deliver more energy downrange. But even if it is no better than 1.25 MOA, you're looking at a maximum deviation from point of aim at 350 yards of only about 2.2", well within the vital zone of any deer. | |||
|
One of Us |
Larry did a great job of evaluating the problem and solving it with a 6 inch taget at range. You already have your answer, at 300 yards your bullet exited the animal. Plenty of energy and better accuracy. The question I can't answer right now is , is the "gain" in flatter trajectory really a gain in point blank zero? In other words is it flat enough that you don't have to estimate the range and hold over or under. Off the top of my head I know a 77 grain Match King is 6" high at 160ish yards, zero at 300, and 6" low at 350. A bad day at the range is better than a good day at work. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Playing with the ballistics calculators, switching to the higher bc ballistic tip (.453) over the interlock (.391), and pushing them 200+fps faster, will give me quite a bit less drop. My aim point with the slower hornady's at 300yrds (3moa) would become my 350yrd aim point (3moa) for the faster load if each is sighted 2" high at 100yrds. That said, I haven't shot the newer loads past 100 yards yet. I deer hunt big grain fields in north MO, and shots could be anywhere from 10yrds to practically infinity. My longest shot on a deer to date has been 370yrds. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I suppose it matters whether the groups you mentioned are 100 yard groups? If so, they'll be a bit more open at 300 yards. | |||
|
One of Us |
 I'll answer with a question and then a suggestion. Q. Can you miss fast enough to kill a deer at ANY range? S. I'd run my calculator to determine the point blank range difference between the faster and slower loads, and include the difference based on the BCs involved. If the difference in point blank range is more than about 50 yards in favor of the faster load, then I'd go with the faster load over the more accurate one. If it is less than 50 yards difference, I'd pick the more accurate load, and shoot it enough to develop a good trajectory chart for that specific load from my specific gun. The biggest problem many folks have when hunting seems to be that they can't judge range well at all...so an extra 25 or 30 yards of point blank isn't gonna help them when they are commonly off 75 to 100 yards (or more, sometimes MUCH more) in their range estimates. In that instance, they might as well have the better accuracy which MAY help some. Of course, if you are in a situation where you can laser-range the animals before shooting, then either load will probably work fine.  My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Not the same bullet as yours but a comparison with .257 Roberts and 117 Sierra Soft Point Boat Tail (bc .410). 2750 6 high at 170 0 at 300 5.6 low at 350 9 inch Point Blank Zero is 268 yards max range 315 yards 10 inch Point balnk zero is 280 yards max range of 329 yards 3000 4.88 at 170 0 at 300 4.6 low at 350 9 inch Point Blank Zero is 291 yards max range 342 yards 10 inch Point balnk zero is 303 yards max range of 356 yards Probably not as helpful as you need but a little info. A better BC of .453 would tighten the PBZ. A bad day at the range is better than a good day at work. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I'd probably play with the load a bit more and see if I could find a combination in the 3k range that gave me those 1/2" groups. You have a lot of time until hunting season. | |||
|
| one of us |
With laser range finders and balistic reticles vel means less. As long as you have enough vel and energy to driver your bullet threw the vitals and damage them it well work. I wouldn't feel under or over gun with one or the other mentioned here. | |||
|
One of Us |
 I consider any of my rifles that can shoot an honest measured 1 1/4" 5-shot group at 100 yards to be ready to go hunting. I'd like it to be better but 1.25" means (theoretically) 5/8" inch deviation from point of aim at 100 yards.....that's good enough for the kind of girls I go out with! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
|
one of us |
If that bullet groups 0.5 @ 2750 fps I bet you could find a powder that will do the same at 3000 fps. My 257 likes IMR4350. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Clem has a point here! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
|
| One of Us |
I've burnt 3/4 of a pound of H100V trying to get the 115grn ballistic tips tuned in, and I'm still unsure abut the groups I've been getting. I'll get a nice group at .786", and the next group could be 1.2" back to back or one day vrs the next. The slower load seems more consistant on average at always being sub moa (more honestly .7-.8" than 1/2moa average). | |||
|
Moderator |
As mentioned earlier, if you are thinking of hunting at 350 yards then you need to see how your gun shoots at that range. Anything else is just guessing and your personal experience will be better or worse than the data used for the ballistic info you are using, but the chances of it being the exact same are very slim. for every hour in front of the computer you should have 3 hours outside | |||
|
| One of Us |
That varying performance is quite typical for most shooters and most rifles. It points out two things....First, that shooters themselves have good days and bad days. Second, it points out the weakness of using "groups" to evaluate a rifle's usefulness in the field. It is entirely possible (though obviously not likely or predictable on any given day) that on one day, a person might shoot the six best groups his rifle and load will ever fire. Let's say their average is .367" that day. There are lots of witnesses all over the range. What do the other folks and the shooter say? -"That rifle loves that load!" -"That rifle is an absolute tack driver! It'll shoot half-inch groups or smaller all day long...!" -"God, that Joe Doaks can shoot...did you see the groups he just shot?" And so on. The next time out it just so happens the rifle shoots the six worst groups it's ever gonna shoot. Again, not likely you'll get all six such groups on one day, but statistically, it can occur just as easily as any other group sizes. So, anyway, the average group size that "bad" day is 1.594".... What do the many, many witnesses (and there doubtless will be lots of them on THAT day) all say? -"Talk about a crappy load..." -"I'm not surprised; those Ravagechesterton rifles are all sh-t! Heck, ain't none of them'll reliably hit a watermelon at 100 yards..." -"Why are you surprised? That Doaks is all mouth and no money anyway...can't shoot for sour apples." And so on. So, what we have here is probably not a POS rifle, likely not a bona fide sub-half-inch rifle, not necessarily a crappy load, nor a world champion shooter, none of those things. It's most likely just the statistics of groups displaying their very limited usefullness when looked at in terms of reliability (repeatability) and validity (do they actually measure what they are assumed to?) as predictors of field performance. Again, Hitting things in the field is not reliably or validly indicated by measuring groups from the bench...especially small numbers of groups... Trouble is, with limited barrel life and all the other factors thrown in, it is very difficult to come up with a judgmental tool which IS reliable and valid. So, guess we're stuck with what we see in our practice sessions, but don't let it worry you too much. The fun of shooting is the challenge of hitting what you aim at, and the enjoyment of the environment in which you shoot. Everything else is just book-keeping. Best wishes, AC My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Good post AC and way to go breaking it down! I routinely help my gunsmith. Sometimes but very seldom, a customer sends back a rifle and says it won't shoot. He enlists me to go out and shoot it and even do the load development for the rifle. The analysis you gave is exactly what I told a customer who sent back a 7mm Weatherby. He said it wouldn't shoot. I took it out and shot some simple development and ended up with three groups within an inch, the best being .6" The customer called me and we had a talk. He was frustrated because the best 5 shot group he could come up with was .75". Most of the time it was 5 shots in an inch. I explained to him that he wasn't going to be shooting 5 shot groups into the rib cage of elk at 500 yards and that the cold bore shot is what mattered for his hunting rifle. The rifle was fine for the task he needed it for. It's not a 25lb. F-Class or bench rest gun. I have found that in doing load development for my hunting rifles that shooting one shot per session at the same target and sight-in yardage tells you more about how the load/rifle is performing than shooting groups. Save the target and do it again till you have a cumulative "group" and then tweak the system if necessary. Sometimes just expectations need to be tweaked! | |||
|
| one of us |
I had intended to do a long winded response here on this subject but Alberta Canuck and rcamuglia said it all, I could not add more. Good information guys, keep up the good work. Good shooting. phurley | |||
|
One of Us |
Great thread and a lot sense being made! Thank you gentlemen. You need one bullet to kill a deer. As long as your point of impact is the same for the first shot from a cold barrel, you are fine. I make sure I know the following 1 Where does the rifle shoot at 350 meters? 2 Is the point of impact (POI) stable for a cold barrel first shot? 3 Is the POI stable for a clean or a fouled barrel? I always take a fouled barrel into the field. It is great fun to just put our orange clay targets at varying ranges and try & bust them. Long range varminting is another fun thing to do. All this gives me confidence in my rifle, load and my shooting at longer ranges. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading Speed over accuracy / accuracy over speed?
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia