Figured I'd put this here. Close as I could come.

Met with a friend of mine who wanted to give me a bunch of reloading powder. Also gave me these.



Full box of 50 rounds on what appears to be M93 chargers (stripper clips) and have a headstamp of K 37. I have heard that this was produced for South Africa or something but don't know for sure.

Anyone out there know the story?

K = Kynoch
37 = 1937

Not made for South Africa
We have to remember that the ammo for the 7x57 used in the Boer War (1898 -1902) was made by Eley and wore Eley Headstamps.

by the end of the war even the Boers had taken to using Enfields

The British used 7x57's on a very limited basis and first mentioned around 1904 They used the 7x57 in the Navy during WW 1 to shoot sea mines but the caliber was not designated as 7mm but .276 Some of the early issue ammo wore Eley HS's and on the packs it was labeled for mine clearing later packs were Kynoch and also labeled for mine clearing.

A very complete list of Boer War 7mm HS can be found in Ron Bester's book on the small arms of the Boer War.

Thanks. That explained some of it. Still makes me wonder what the were producing this ammo on chargers for in 1937.

The saga continues.

quote:

Still makes me wonder what the were producing this ammo on chargers for in 1937

In 1937 there were many militaries using 7mm rifle plus all the other ones in the world does not surprise me at all.

The 1925 Nobel Industries Limited, London (Eley & Kynoch brands) catalog shows many different entries with "These cartridges can be put up in chargers of 5 if required". All of the Mauser rounds, both sporting and military heritage, are shown that way as are many of the rimmed military heritage rounds used for sporting purposes.

Very accommodating of them, eh wot?

So basically in those days the ammunition folks were trying to make their customers happy and meet whatever needs they had. That is refreshing even if it is nearly 100 years in the past.

quote:

Still makes me wonder what the were producing this ammo on chargers for in 1937.

This was being made, the bullet weight is the clue...and that it's soft point...for use in .275" Rigby rifles. With the clip handy to carry two clips in a side pocket instead of ten loose rounds.

There NEVER was any Kynoch ammunition with a ".275" Rigby" headstamp. Just "7mm" and don't forget all those Rigby Mausers were..yes...charger loading with the "hump" still there.

Actually it isn't soft point. It is a full metal jacket spritzer. The jacked is that silvery metal that I can't recall the name of at this moment.

Nickel. Ah! So next time I read what the box says instead of reading what I think it says! So I did wonder if this was sporting ammunition "put up" in a run over of military customer headstamp cases.

Certainly K37 is the military customer (as it were) headstamp. In which case it's maybe for target shooting as certainly there were a lot of 7x57 Mauser 1896 rifles that were passed down through the family.

That is a "contract" box (plain yellow label)
The K = standard Kynoch HS and not a Kynoch Military contract HS ( the known Kynoch military contract HS's are listed )
The 37 is the date stamp
These are quite common in the USA as a large number of these have been up for sale at various sites and auctions.

important is what marking is on the charger ?
Should be a K-B or K-N if of British origin

As for the original question regarding South Africa.
The only British 7x57 cases found on SA battlefields have been Eley HS's and only on one battle site. Most of the ammo bought by the Boers were German in origin.

A bit more in the Kynoch history vein -

After WWI Eley and Kynoch were part of a conglomeration that came under the umbrella of Nobel (London) in 1920. In 1926 the conglomeration was reorganised as part of Imperial Chemical Industries (ICI). This lasted until a brief name change in 1962 only for production of the original Kynoch ammunition to end in 1963. This info is from George Hoyem's "History and Development of Small Arms Ammunition" vol 3.

Another tiny somewhat off-topic note - according to Bill Fleming's "British Sporting Rifle Cartridges", while Kynoch may or may not have ever produced ammunition headstamped "Kynoch .275 Rigby", the British manufacturer Kings Norton may have; or perhaps both just made the ammunition for Rigby that had no markings but Rigby, like Norma making Weatherby ammo. Hoyem's book also has a full reprint of the 1926 ICI Kynoch and Eley catalog in which (unlike the 1925 Nobel Eley-Kynoch one mentioned in my post above), the '.275 Rimless Rigby' has its own entries that are distinct from the '7 mm (.276) Mauser (Spanish)' entries. A box of one of the latter loads is shown in the photo in the original post by drhall762 above.

The 275 Rigby saga continues:

Over the years I have sought evidence of Rigby HS 275 case and to date there is no evidence that such a example exists !

There is under Kynoch a list reference to the 275 Rigby in 1936 only ( this is years after the 275 was introduced in 1998 )

We see drawings for Kynoch designated as 275 Rigby in 1958 and 1969
This is very late in the game !

(Kynoch drawings APS/ 776 with Norma comp 1969 and AP/156 1958)

We have 275 Rigby boxes ( possibly King’s Norton Metallic ) but no Rigby HS.

The HS of King’s Norton Metallic = KNMco 7mm or simply KN 7mm
Production date circa 1908 some 10 million rounds for the Serbians for their converted rifle in 173 gr

So going back to the beginning 1898 /1899 when Mauser sends Rigby their First "275 Rifles" and actions built on the "short bolt" (6.16 ) Transition Mauser action set up for the 7x57 ( as opposed to the longer action Transition set up for the 8x57 )
The owners manual was a direct translation of the original German Mauser manual complete with original Mauser drawings.

At this time there was no 173 gr Kynoch 7x57 ammo but there was Eley ammo.

We see reference to Kynoch in a mil list making or having a 180 gr / 31gr cordite military load
from 1897 but none of these were used for sporting purposes nor during the boer war.

The Kynoch HS does not appear on the battle fields of the Boer war.

The Kynoch HS in 7x57 appears in 1908 in and loaded in the 173 gr bullet.


During the Boer war the only English HS ammo is Eley and BM&M co

BM&M makes 10,000 7x57 rounds in September of 1899

Eley and BM &M Boer War = 173 gr RN the BM&M has a 173 SN bullet with 2mm exposed lead bullet

Rigby’s early 275’s were supplied with Eley ammo as well as 5 pack of Eley dummy rounds.

The Early Rigby 275's were sighted for the 173 gr bullet and the 140 gr bullet and ammo only makes its appearance circa 1924 according to the Rigby book?

These were loaded by Kynoch.

Not only does Kynoch load it with a 140 gr bullet it increases the charge from 40 gr to 43 gr.

For the number 2 rifle they add a 400 yard leaf instead of the original 3 leafs. ( but here is an anomaly : Bell orders his first 275 Rigby in 1910 and this it claimed to be a No 2 rifle ? this requires some investigation because if the No 2 was only made circa 1924 then Bell’s first 275 had to have been a No 1 rifle ? )

I can just add:

In the Rigby catalogs and I have a number all of the Rigby branded 140 gr HV offerings did not include a Solid bullet.
The earliest reference to this ( 1926) shows a 140 gr pointed soft point and a 140 gr "hollow tube" bullet which is essentially a metal capped
hollow point bullet.

I have only removed one charger with 5 rounds from the box. That charger is marked with a "W" inside a circle. Then again, it might be an "M" inside a circle. All depends on which way is up. They fit nicely in my Spanish 1916 Rifle and my 95 Chilean.

Here's the relevant page from the 1926 ICI Kynoch catalog - note that the 275 Rigby 140 gr load is actually lighter than the 7mm load (the 173 is heavier, go figure), and that the 7mm with a '140 gr solid pointed' like drhall762's picture shows is listed.

Thanks. There it is. Fifth entry down. I am sure the mark on the charger means something but I have no idea where to even start on that one.

The Chargers are indeed a W in a circle marked.
this fits with the chargers found in the ammo that turned up in the USA in the plain yellow boxes.

in this lies the problem so to speak

The charger markings are as follows
Kynoch had a K-B or simply K as mark
Kings Norten Metallic marked KN
DWM had a oval with DM in it
Some of the contract Spanish 7x57 had no mark

The closest I can come is Weiss of Budapest and that would be Hungarian.... we know Serbia used 7x57's

Serbian chargers were marked CK
after the ammo manufacturer Kraljevska Caurnica Kragujevac or simply Kragujevac

But the problem is these predate the Kynoch ammo by a full 10 years and Serbia Loaded their oown ammo as well marked with the CK HS and date stamps

As to the 275 load for the M 93 as opposed to the Rigby.

The original 275 Rigby was built on the short bolt transition M98 action and Rigby regulated their rifles for the 173 gr load to the 100 , 200 and 300 yard leaves
Mauser built around 1000 of these actions set up for 8x57 and the 7x57
All of these went to Rigby which we understand may have resold some.

( I have two one with a very low serial number in the 100's and a second with a 9** serial number)

The No 2 HV rifle with its 140 gr was regulated for the 100 300 and 400 yard leaves.

They set the velocity spec to match the rifle sights

This was essentially a different animal than the M93 Spanish Mauser which was regulated for use with the Mauser military sight up to 1200 m

The velocity spec for the M93 then also called for the same velocity as the original DWM ammo as supplied for Spanish Rifle hence the lower load

The charger mark was confusing me. I found a partial list on one forum but it wasn't listed.

Went and looked up the Rigby No 1, 2 and 3. Very nice. I see what is meant by the German receiver. Very clearly marked.

On a slightly different aspect, these are Berdan primed and corrosive, are they not. Please correct me if not.

The steel chargers with marking W in a circle may well be from Manfred Weiss in Budapest Hungary (Manfréd Weiss Steel and Metal Works)
Their mark was a W in a circle

Just found a reference to them. They used W or italicized W or W inside circle during the course of their existence until nationalized in 1950.

Fascinating ! I knew rifles were used to take out sea mines in WWII .But also in WWI and special ammo for the rifle available - WOW ! I'd like to read more about the use and pictures too .

We should not underestimate what Impact the Mauser had on a global scale. IMHO this rifle was / is likely the single greatest invention in the shooting world ! The economic reach of this rifle and the ammunition they shot with extended to every continent and almost every country across the world.

quote:

We should not underestimate what Impact the Mauser had on a global scale. IMHO this rifle was / is likely the single greatest invention in the shooting world !

Hmm. I'd reckon Mr Samuel Pauly might disagree with that!

However the fact that Mauser, like J M Browning "got it right" almost from the start is a credit to the genius of those designs.

Yet I also wonder how much Mauser's rifles were adopted because they were so good and how much, if any, because of kick backs or "commissions" to the relevant purchaser's procurement officers?

My intention was not to place Mauser on the scale of the timeline of inventions but merely to point out the depth of market penetration in terms of a global scale.

Just looking at Ball's book on the Mauser military rifles we see that market penetration was huge globally and then if we were to add the ammo contracts and who's who in factories and plants that manufactured for the various Mauser derived rifles at the time it was massive!

Prior to WW1 the scale of men at arms that needed to be armed in Europe and especially eastern Europe was staggering !

Researching Headstamps of ammo procured for Mauser rifles and Mauser rifle conversions unearths a astonishing large list and array of factories and plants the world over. It's fascinating to say the least !

As an example the relatively small insurrection called the Boer War yields evidence of Mauser related ammo sources that fills a page ! What then also fascinates me is that many of the old time gun Shops now sadly gone in the City of Pretoria were linked to the pre Boer war importation of ammunition and rifles for the old ZAR Republic.