Good afternoon.
Help I've been obscessing for quite some time now on this problem. I would like to put up about 2000 rounds of general use ammo for the 7.62 x 51. I have decided on these components: processed military brass and fed 210 match primers. I just can not make up my mind what kind of bullet and powder to use.

The load will be fired in these rifles: Ruger 77, rem 700 v., styer scout,M1-a, and FNFAL.

Primary uses with be informal target shooting out to 600 yards and hunting white tail deer and hogs. The hogs occationaly will go over 250 labs so they need a lot of penetration on any angling shots. The bullet must be accurate, inexpensive, and open well on a ninety pound doe and have enough penetration for large hogs. The tip must be such that it will cycle through the gas guns with out losing the tip.

It would be nice if the trajectory or the load was pretty close to ball ammo so I could use the issue sights of the M1-A out to 500 yrds.

any suggestions/experience will be appreciated.

I'm assuming you know that "normal" loading data has to be backed off for your military brass. As for inexpensive bullets, that should match penetration, with good accuracy try Sierras or Speers.

ELS, I doubt very seriously that you can load one particular round that will be accurate in ALL your .308 W. rifles.

I've loaded extensively for the .308 W., for four different rifles, and have never found a round that shot accuartely in one rifle, that would then shoot accurately in another.(In my bolt actions, a semi-auto, and a lever.)

I'll guess here that you'll end up having to tweak a load for each rifle, then set those rounds aside for use with the particular rifle when you go to the range or field.

JMHO. L.W.

quote:

Originally posted by els:
...The hogs occationaly will go over 250 labs so they need a lot of penetration on any angling shots. ...

Hey els, I know Texas is BIG, but that sure seems like a LOT of Dogs to hunt Hogs with. (I know you meant lbs, just couldn't help myself. HA)

quote:

Originally posted by els:
... I would like to put up about 2000 rounds of general use ammo for the 7.62 x 51. ... The bullet must be accurate, inexpensive, and open well on a ninety pound doe and have enough penetration for large hogs. The tip must be such that it will cycle through the gas guns with out losing the tip. It would be nice if the trajectory or the load was pretty close to ball ammo so I could use the issue sights of the M1-A out to 500 yrds. ...

1. What weight FMJ are you currently using, 150gr?

2. Have you already tried some Bullets that worked well on the Hogs at 600yds in any of those rifles?

3. What size is the Kill Zone on the Hogs, 14"? 16"?

150gn Power Points with 46gns of Varget, WW(grey box)150 Power Points and Aussie Milsurp shoot to practally the same POI at 100yds in my Mark 10 Whitworth. I shot a 2" 10shot group 3,3,4 of the above. Not great but PDG. capt david

Thanks for the replies.

Hot core I would only be shooting to 600 yrds for target shooting. I wouldn't attempt a shot at a unwounded animal at over 200 yrds. The idea of the ww power points sounds good.

has any one used sierra 180's in a gas gun. Does the action bend the soft noses while feeding.

els
I have been shooting the 308 for about 30 years. I have found one load that has shot good in EVERY 308 I have ever fired it in.
This includes sniper rifles, match and standard M1-A's, H&K 91's FN-FAL's, hunting rifles even a Savage 99.
I have killed a lot of game with these loads over the years as well.

The basic recipe is as follows.
Military case, 39.5 grains of IMR 3031 with a Sierra 165 gr HPBT Gameking.
I have used this same load with the 168 Sierra Matchking [not on game], and the Nosler 165 gr Partition and Ballistic Tip.
If I bought a 308 that did not shoot this load good, I would sell it. I have never found a 308 that did not shoot this load good.

Give it a try and let me know how it shoots in your guns.

I have excellent performance in my Remington M-673 .308 using IMR-4064 powder with 150 grain bullets. (Speer 150 gr. "Mag-tips")

If you insist on one load, the threshold of damage to the gas guns will limit you. Load for them first and accept slightly reduced performance in your bolt guns. 4895 is the classic starting place.

Option Two is buying 2,000 rds of a good commercial 150-gr. FMJ and seating a 150-gr. SP like the PowerPoint for use on game. I've done this with red-box PMC, but my only 308 is a bolt gun. These loads are not max, but you'll get good across-the-board performance. Also, if you buy that much ammo, you should be able to swing a pretty good discount.

Option Three is to load most of your brass with 165-gr. Hornady Spire Points over a load that's safe in gas guns, then load the rest with 165-gr. Partitions over the same charge for game.

But I think your best bet is to buy or load a NATO equivalent for the gas guns and work up a load with Varget or RL-15 for the bolt guns. Asking one load to do everything in four different rifles -- two of them gas guns -- is asking a lot.

BTW, send me a PM if you want several hundred pieces of once-fired PMC milspec brass.


Okie John

Your thinking too hard about this. I do the same thing.

Just get some ammo made up that shoots well in each gun and go from there. You will end up with more accurate ammo that way for each gun, cases that are not sized too much for each chamber and overall not a compromise thats best for nothing.

There's no doubt that I am thinking toooo hard about this but that is part of the fun. I khave too many guns so I have to keep it simple one calibre- one load. I have a load that I and my friends use in the 30-06 this way and it works out great.

I'm happy to hear about the 3031 load with the sierra 165. That seems like it will fill the bill. I've shot a couple of deer and 3 or 4 hogs with that bullet but at higher velocity than the 308 is going to give. It sound like th answer. I'll try it out and post the results.

thanks again
es

els,

45.5 grains of Varget
168 grain HPBT for target work, 165 grain hunting bullet of your choice.
Winchester or Lapua brass (Federal Gold Medal is also good , if you can still find it).
WLR or Federal 210 Match primer.
Seat to 2.800" -2.815"
Use good dies to get straight ammo.
running them through a Lee factory crimp die won't hurt either.

Never look back.

lawndart

quote:

The bullet must be accurate, inexpensive, and open well on a ninety pound doe and have enough penetration for large hogs. The tip must be such that it will cycle through the gas guns with out losing the tip.

How about the 165 grain Remington Corelokt?

Hello,
I used to shoot an M1A in High Power service rifle . I was cautioned against using fed 210 match primers in THIS rifle because of the firing pin lightly denting the primer as the round was chambered.Supposedly there would be an occasional slam fire if the primer was not seated fully,as the federal primer cup was softer than others.
I always had 2 loads to try first,
41.5 gr.IMR 4895, LC case, 168 sierra, CCI primer, or
42.5 gr. IMR 4064,LC case,168 sierra, CCI primer
one these two loads always managed to shoot very well in my match rifles.

Regards,

Ooopsie,
I should have read the initial post more carefully. Yeah, the CCI military primers or the WLR would be the way to go. The gas operated military type rifles don't really groove on exposed lead tip projectiles. FMJBTs, HPBTs, Failsafes and Ballistic Tips, etc. work much better. The Varget, RL-15 or TAC powders are the new standards.

lawndart

I have several rifles in .308, including three Ruger 77 RSI's. Those three rifles were the most frustrating guns I have ever worked with. After long trials and errors and not a few pounds of powder of various sorts, I found two loads that worked reasonably well in those rifles. The 165 gr. Speer Hot-core with 49.0 gr. of W760 for a velocity of 2550 FPS from the 18.5" barrel. The other load, which while very accurate is not what I was willing to accept for my style of hunting. It used the 180 gr. Siera round nose.
Like ELS, I was looking for a what I call a "working" load. That 165 gr. Speer load pretty much did the trick with 2550 FPS from the short barreled rifle and 2610 FPS from a 22" barreled rifle. One note of caution though. W-760 may be too slow a powder for the gas guns.
Now, my idea of a working load is reasonable velocity, decent accuracy for the game being hunted, and good bullet performance. How good? Well, of all the deer taken with the RSI, I have only recovered one bullet. That deer was 250 yards out, laser measured. The deer was facing me and took the bullet square in the chest, bang flop. The bullet passed through the deer lengthwise and stopped against a back leg bone, breaking that bone. All the other deer were iether broadside or shallow quartering shots with complete pass through.
What should the the accuracy standard for a working load? I decided 1.25" or less at 100 yards was about right, for me. All three RSI rifles meet that standard. The Remington 660 in a synthetic stock does one inch and the Winchester M70 .75" to one inch, depending on how well I'm shooting that day.
Just for splits and grins, those RSI's will not shoot a decent group with 180 gr. spitzers, but do .75" to 1.25" with the 180 gr Sierra RNs. I never chronographed that load. The 180 gr. Spitzers, several brands mind you, were anywhere from 4.0 to 6.0". No wonder the people I bought them from sold them so cheap. The 150 gr. bullets I tried were 3.0 to 4.0" groupers at best.
I have given that 165 gr. Speer load and the 180 gr. RN load to several other people who had the RSI that they could not make shoot, and those loads also worked for them.
I think I have to agree with the advice to work up the loads for the gas guns first and then see how they do in the other rifles.
Paul B.

What you are asking for is kind of like buying a "one-size-fits-all" jockstrap...

My "GP" .308 Win. load used in a Model 70 FWT was 51.5 grains of H380 with the Fed. 210 primer and Sierra 165-grain HPBT bullets for hunting, with the 168 grain Matchking for target shooting. This was with G.I. brass.

This is a max load which must be approached from 5% below, but was very accurate in my rifle.

I had to cut the charge to 48 grains with the same bullets for use in a Model 99 Savage.

You'd be surprised (or maybe you wouldn't!!) at how tough that 165-grain Sierra HPBT bullet is, for a non-premium bullet. I believe it would do for your hogs. If not, use the 165-grain Nosler Partition instead.

quote:

Originally posted by els:
... I have a load that I and my friends use in the 30-06 this way and it works out great. ...

Hey els, If I read that correctly, it appears you are reloading cartridges for you and your friends. You are probably already aware that this could lead to Legal problems where you end up loosing everything you own, and I hate sermons on a Hunting Board.

I'll just mention it for those folks who are not aware of it. If due to absolutely no fault of els cartridges one of his friends rifles lets go(like the current SAKOs are doing) and the friend's Insurance Company finds out "els" provided Reloads for the friend, then chances are excellent the Insurance Company would go after els for the money they paid out. Used to load for my buddies myself until a buddy mentioned to me about what could happen.

So, what I do is invite the friends over to load their on cartridges on my equipment. If the friends are "too busy" or "not interested", then I just let them go buy Factory Ammo.
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els has some interesting requirements. He wants to shoot Targets at 600yds and use the same ammo to kill Hogs at 200yds. And he wants to use the ammo in different Action Types. Quite similar to what the Factory Ammo guys are up against with their Loads.

If els can get a Load "accurate enough" for the 600yd Targets in the rifle he will use for that, then it will be more than accurate enough for the Hogs at 200yds in the other rifles(probably/maybe).

Then he has these other Bullet desires:

quote:

The bullet must be accurate, inexpensive, and open well on a ninety pound doe and have enough penetration for large hogs. The tip must be such that it will cycle through the gas guns with out losing the tip.

We all know if the Bullet selected will kill a Hog, then it will kill a Deer very well.

Feeding through a semi-auto has the potential to be tricky, but it just depends on the specific rifle. Occasionally changing the Seating Dept slightly on a Bullet giving feeding problems is all it takes to turn it into a slick feeding cartridge. I believe some Bullet Tips and Profiles lend themselves to better feeding than others, but this is simple enough to resolve with a box of Factory Win and Rem ammo in the desired weight.

Since you can find Win and Rem bullets in Bulk "cheaper" than the Hornady, Speer, Sierra and for darn sure Nosler Bullets, that narrows that down. But other Bullets would likely provide better "accuracy". The trick is to see if they are "accurate enough" for what els wants.

Either the 150gr or 165gr should work, but I'd give a slight edge to the 165gr for a 200yd Hog.

He already said he will be using Mil cases and Match Primers, so that just leaves Powder. Good old WW-748 and BL-C2 are what was originally developed for the 7.62NATO in semi-autos, so they will both work in them today. And so will IMR-4064(or Varget) and provide less muzzle flash.

So, here is what I'd recommend.

1. Geat a box of Win and Rem 165gr factory ammo and see which feeds the best through the semi-autos.

2. Buy a small Bulk quantity(500) of which ever one fed the best to do Load Development with. Just Seat them to the cannelure and they should feed since they did in the factory ammo.

3. Using only the semi-auto rifle you intend to do the most 600yd shooting with, use the never improved upon Creighton Audette Method to Develop the Load at 300yds.
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Just goes against the grain to say use a "Random Picked Load".