Back in the 60s Sierra run a deal where they would send a bronze pin to anyone that could shoot a 1" 10-shot group at 100 yards. Anyone remember it?

You had to use Sierra bullets and take your target to an NRA member to measure it and a notary and have it notarized. Send it to Sierra and they sent you a bronze lapel pin.

I've never seen one of those pins in my life.....ever!

They dropped that deal later and then I finally actually shot one of those groups. Heck!

Has anyone here actually shot a 1" 10 shot group at 100 yards using a standard hunting rifle.....not a bench gun mind you...a real off the shelf hunting rig.

3 and 5-shot groups don't count here.

I never shoot ten shot groups but ,,,,,maybe. I do remember the pin, a friend of mine that absolutely loved Sierra bullet's had one. Way back then we'd do it once in awhile and I'd like to say I did it but I don't recall.

Aw what the hell, yea,do it all the time!

quote:

3 and 5-shot groups don't count here.

Darn. I haven't even tried to shoot 10 rounds into a 1-inch group, but sounds like a nice challenge. I'm not sure what it would prove in my hunting rifles though.

Hey vapo

What do we get if we do it? The only time I shoot 10 shots at the same target is when I've only got 10 loaded rounds left in a hunting load. I shoot them off so I can load 25 new ones at the same time with the same prep, same box of bullets and same lot of powder. Then go shoot 5 to check the new load and have 20 left for hunting.

I think I have done it in the past with a Sako 270 before it's accuracy started going downhill.

We wouldn't have to use Sierra's bullets, would we?

I did it once in a custom Shilen barreled M-70 22-250 and Berger bullets.....actually the ten shots was in 3/8th" group.

I've never done it since even with the same gun. This happened many years after Sierra quit it's offer of the bronze pin.

I remember back in the early 60s one of the bullet makers had a cash prize that was quite substantial for a certain size group shot with their bullets. I do not remember who it was or just how much the prize was, but I had a Rem. 40x in what then was a 244 Rem. [6mm Rem. now] and could never do it. If nothing else they sold a lot of bullets to guys trying to win it. I do not remember if anyone did or not.

Just read your last post Vapo. Just about any hunter class gun worth a damn should be able to do it all day. Not too different then a hunting rifle. I think one of the biggest improvements in any target shooting [ if not the biggest] is the bullets being made by people that give a damn about doing it right.

In a BR match in Vt. a couple of years ago I shot 19 strieght Xs. The X on an IBS BR score target is a 1/8 inch dot, this was with a 6X scope, and decent bullets.

I bet the pins cost less to make than 10 Sierra Bullets.......................DJ

I have. In the early 60s Harry McGowen made me a 22 Varminter with a light weight barrel. This rifle would do this as a rule and was not to finiky about the bullet being used.

Fred Barnes built me a 6mm x .270 IMP that would do this almost all the time.

Some of the Stevens Mod. 200s will come close to that with the right bullet and load. You just can't get the nut off. Happy 2007 roger

I got one of those pins back then. It was not that easy. The best gun that I had for it was a 722 in 222 with a 6X scope.

quote:

Originally posted by Savage99:
I got one of those pins back then. It was not that easy. The best gun that I had for it was a 722 in 222 with a 6X scope.

Hay...Savage99....can you post a pic of that pin?

quote:

Has anyone here actually shot a 1" 10 shot group at 100 yards using a standard hunting rifle.....not a bench gun mind you...a real off the shelf hunting rig.

Vapodog my Tikka T3 25-06 has and is doing it with 110grn Accubonds.

If Sierra bullets could shoot a 10 shot 1" group, I would do it. Noslers and Hornaday ballistic tips will do it, but I have yet to get that from Sierras.

I'll have to try it with the 35 Whelen... I use Sierra 225gr Gamekings and I do think it can accomplish that challenge.

vapodog,

I have no idea where it is but I have almost everything still! I am interested to keep an eye out for it. I tried to get a second pin and I did not get a good enough group and then finally they dropped the program.

I found this pic on ebay and I am not positive that the left pin is the 10 shot pin? I just can't remember it that well.

Vapo, when you say, off the shelf hunting rifle, does this exclude one that is for hunting but has been worked on? New bbl, blueprinted action, etc.?

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:
Vapo, when you say, off the shelf hunting rifle, does this exclude one that is for hunting but has been worked on? New bbl, blueprinted action, etc.?

Doc,
A hunting gun....not a benchrest gun...I assume this includes rebarreled, bedded, etc...

IIRC I believe sierra said rifle and scope under 10 pounds and scope less than 9 power allowing for 3-9 variable scope...been a while but it was something like this.

That's a tough standard, off the shelf hunting rifle. I have shot 10 shot groups under 1" a number of times with match rifles, but looking through my data targets, I cannot find one with a unmodified hunting rifle. I have a SAKO with which I won the state silhouette match, but I never shot the thing for ten shot groups off the bench. It might have made it.

Just recently I was testing loads in my Ruger M77 Tactical in 308. This rifle is a variant of the Ruger Varmint rifle. It required glassbedding of the action to get it to shoot ten shots under an inch so that throws that out of the unmodified category. But if the factory had done their job in providing a properly bedded action, this would make it. I shot a five shot .5 MOA group during load development. The group was so nice that I decided to quit, even with a .5 MOA gun it is easy to throw a round a couple inches to one side or the other.

Ten shots under an inch is a very tough standard as not only does the rifle and load have to shoot sub MOA, but the shooter can’t mess up, not even a little. And that is hard.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
Back in the 60s Sierra run a deal where they would send a bronze pin to anyone that could shoot a 1" 10-shot group at 100 yards. Anyone remember it?

I don't even remember that. But back then I was shooting (rag) M70s and fine old M99s, so I wouldn't have had a chance for 10-in-1" back then.

quote:

Has anyone here actually shot a 1" 10 shot group at 100 yards using a standard hunting rifle.....not a bench gun mind you...a real off the shelf hunting rig. ...

Yes. And anytime you want to, stop by and you can try one (or more) of them out for yourself.

Not counting 22LRs, I think there are only two in the Safe that have not done that yet. One probably never will, but the other one "might".

P.S. If you want to do it easily, get a 26" Bull Barrelled M700VLS chambered for the 308Win and adjust the trigger. Stick a reliable 20x scope on it. Use fully Prepped and Weight Sorted Cases with Fed GM Primers. Put in starting Loads of H380 shown in Hodgdon's #26 and Seat 168gr MatchKings 0.010" Into-the-Lands. Shoot at the corner of a small Black Square right after sunrise.

I believe anyone can do it with that combination if they have a bit of Trigger Time under their belts and can maintain their focus/concentration on the task.

I have a 7mag with a Shilen #4 on it that did 2 groups of 5 shots no bigger than 3/8" with Btips. Can I add those together?

This makes me want to go out and try it.

So V-dog, are you trying to make a point here?

If we all shot 10 shot groups the number of 1/2" groups would drindle to nearly none. Is that it?

I've seen quite a few rifles that would do it, but the real culprit is the shooter.

There are many factory hunting rifles up to the task but not many shooters can not pull at least one for ten shots.

I think it would be very easy myself w/ many of todays varmint caliber rigs. Many shoot sub 1/2" groups very consistently and with the right shooter backing them would probably put 20 in less than an inch.

Now, putting ten into an inch at 200, that would be a challenge...

Reloader

I agree with Reloader. I think that there are rifles out there that will do it. I think that I maght have a couple of rifles that will do that. I don't know if they will do it with Sierra bullets or not. I have only triesd them one of my rifles.
I have a Rem 700P LTR that put 5 Sierra 168gr MK's in a hole that measured .353". It is a stock rifle with a Nikon 3-9X40 Buckmaster scope on it.
I am about to try that load again and see if it was a fluke. If it turns out not to be a situation where the stars were in the right position I will try a ten shot group & see what happens.

I had loaded some new Norma cases for a stock Remington 700 .280 with a very mild charge of RL22 and Hornady 139 gr SST's, to form the cases. Velocity was around 2500 fps. They were neck sized only with a Lee collet die to hold the bullets, and thrown together without any particular special care and I let a friend fire them at the range at 100 yds. When I saw his target I was amazed at the big ragged hole in the target. I remember laughing my ass off because I just picked a start load out of one of the manuals and used whatever left over components were laying around. There had to be at least 20 rounds that he fired, and there were easily more than half of them in the ragged hole. Can't say that 10 or more consecutive shots went into the hole, but I wouldn't be surprised. Luckily I recorded the charge so sometime in the future I'll load some more up and give it a try and let you folks know how it goes. If nothing else it's a great reduced load for thick woods hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by Zupspoon:
I had loaded some new Norma cases for a stock Remington 700 .280 with a very mild charge of RL22 and Hornady 139 gr SST's, to form the cases. Velocity was around 2500 fps. They were neck sized only with a Lee collet die to hold the bullets, and thrown together without any particular special care and I let a friend fire them at the range at 100 yds. When I saw his target I was amazed at the big ragged hole in the target. I remember laughing my ass off because I just picked a start load out of one of the manuals and used whatever left over components were laying around. There had to be at least 20 rounds that he fired, and there were easily more than half of them in the ragged hole. Can't say that 10 or more consecutive shots went into the hole, but I wouldn't be surprised. Luckily I recorded the charge so sometime in the future I'll load some more up and give it a try and let you folks know how it goes. If nothing else it's a great reduced load for thick woods hunting.

Zup, that was too easy!!! Your giving reloaders a bad reputation!!!

I think Reloder has hit the nail on the head.

I have a rifle and load combo that would certainly do it - .222rem Steyr, 21gr RL7 and 50gr Sierra BK's.

I don't think I could maintain the concentration required. I would have to space the shots out over 30 minutes.

i have one somewhere in the bottom of a drawer, its a green and gold thing. shot it with a 222 mag sako with a 10x lyman that has a 1/4 minute dot

I never heard of the Sierra pin until tonight but the 10 shot 1" groups are easy. I have 2 7mm08s and a 300SAUM that will do it with Sierra bullets. I always glass and float the barrels and never shoot factory ammo. Other than that they are just hunting rifles.

don't forget guys that this was in 1964 or 65 and at that time accuracy as we know it today was really rare. CNC machinery has done wonders for our sport, but it wasn't around then.

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Originally posted by butchloc:
don't forget guys that this was in 1964 or 65 and at that time accuracy as we know it today was really rare. ...

Absolutely.

Almost every single component in the Firing Process has been improved since then - rifle barrels, stocks, assembled rifles, Scope Mounts, Scopes, Cases, Primers, Powders and for absolutely sure the Bullets. Perhaps the only part not to have a significant improvement is the actual Trigger Yanker.
---

Hey Vapodog, I was grinding this over while impatitntly waiting on something today. Interesting question in more ways than one.

If Sierra was to once again offer a similar Program, what do you all think the Accuracy Standard to get the Pin with today's products should be?

Too bad it is not really as easy as a lot of these guys make it out to be, this is a factory stock rifle remember.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
If Sierra was to once again offer a similar Program, what do you all think the Accuracy Standard to get the Pin with today's products should be?

Let me update the Sierra offer as best I recall

I remember something like less than 9 pounds with scope, no more than 10 power scope and over 224 caliber.

Meaning one can rebarrel, glass bed, float, and many other things as long as it was still in those parameters.....it's been a while and I likely have some of this wrong!!!!!

To your question Hot Core:

There is undoubtedly a lot of folks that have shot 1/2" three shot groups.....I've done it many times....but they was statistically a fluke.

When one has to shoot ten inside an inch (Center to center) and prove it and notarize it.....the number of 1/2" shooters falls to damn few.

If this was twisted to say "using a hunting grade bullet from anyone" the number would go down.....as it puts matchkings and A-Max's out!!!

I'm fully aware that this "feat" has nothing to do with hunting......as 10-shot groups mean nothing to a hunter.

However, if the person had to shoot a 10 shot group in order to verify his rifle's accuracy, the number of 1" shooting posts would be dramatically smnall indeed.....Sierra wouldn't be hurt financially at all buying pins to hand out!!!

Pedersoli has a minute of angle challenge you can shoot right now but I suspect it is more difficult than Sierra's. Scroll to the bottom for the minute of angle challenge


Minute of angle challenge

The higher quality black powder cartridge rifles were capable of remarkable accuracy at long ranges and some of the records set over 120 years ago at Creedmoor, Wimbledon, Bisley, Dollymount, Walnut Hill and other famous shooting ranges have never been broken ! Rifle shooters then and now speak in terms of "minutes of angle" when referring to elevation or windage changes and any modern or antique rifle which can shoot many shots into "one minute of angle" is considered to be a very accurate rifle indeed. At 100 yards one minute equals approximately 1.0 inch, 200 yards equals 2.0 inches and so on for longer yardage.

Many shooters are able to fire 8 to 10 shots inside one minute of angle (MoA) but that unexpected gust of wind or other factor usually spoils their attempt at long strings of shots inside one MoA. However........with careful preparation , good shooting conditions and an above average amount of skill, a good marksman can do it with a small caliber black powder rifle. Shooting MoA with a large caliber black powder rifle is more difficult but can also be done.

Davide Pedersoli & Co. throws out the challenge to any shooter, anywhere in the world, using any brand of rifle which meets the rules requirements, and will award a handsome bronze plaque which recognizes the skill and accomplishment of any shooter using iron sights or telescopic sights (separate awards for each class) who is able to fire 20 consecutive shots in one shooting session inside one MoA. The rules are given below:
MINUTE OF ANGLE CHALLENGE RULES

No entry fee or form required. Prizes will be awarded for both iron and scope sighted rifles and every winner will receive a bronze plaque. Each year a new contest will start.

1. Rifle to be .40 caliber or larger .

2. Any rifle legal for (US) NRA silhouette, mid-range, long-range or Creedmoor matches may be used but an exposed hammer is required.

3. Any pure black powder load will be allowed. No Pyrodex, duplex loadings or substitute BP allowed.

4. Only cast or swaged lead or lead alloy bullets allowed. No jacketed bullets or gas checks allowed.

5. Winners will supply two nice photos showing him/her with rifle used and the four targets or groups displayed. Sign a simple statement granting the right to use the photos in publicity releases. Full technical details of the rifle, groove diameter or caliber dimension, weight, type of sights used, shooting method and ammunition components and assembly data are required to be furnished.

6. The challenge is to fire 5 shots into each of 4 consecutive targets, or four 5 shot groups onto a single paper target on which the four groups can be properly separated, during one day's shooting session and each of the 4 group sizes must measure one minute of angle or smaller, for that shooting distance. Unlimited sighter shots on another target may be fired. The shooter and a range officer or club official are to sign off on each of the 4 targets or a single target stating each 5 shot group was fired at the stated distance and in a consecutive manner, and, the center to center distance size of each group is ONE MINUTE OF ANGLE or less for the distance being fired. The size of One Minute of Angle using the yards system will be as follows: 100 yards = 1.047"; 200 yards = 2.094"; 300 yards = 3.141"; 400 yards = 4.188"; 500 yards = 5.24". Shooters using the metric system will use the following MoA sizes given in inches : 100 meters = 1.08"; 200 meters = 2.16"; 300 meters = 3.25"; 400 meters= 4.53"; 500 meters = 5.66". Entries must also state the day, month , year and hour of start and completion along with shooters name , address, phone number. Also the name and location of the shooting range.

7. Targets, releases and photos to be mailed to : Dick Trenk Competition Events Coordinator Davide Pedersoli & Co. 6310 93rd Ter. #4101 Pinellas Park, Florida 33782 USA (email any questions to dicktrenk@aol.com)
SCORING RULES

For bullet holes which are oval in shape, the center of the hole will be considered to be 1/2 the barrel groove diameter from the edge of the hole nearest to the center of the group. Shooter and range officer (or club official) will determine to their own satisfaction, the center to center distance of each group by using any type transparent overlay or measuring device which does NOT enter the bullet hole. Any target which shows evidence of a plug or device having entered a bullet hole will be disqualified. Target judging will be performed by the High Power Rifle Team members at the Wyoming Antelope Club (NRA affiliate) located in Pinellas Park, Florida USA.


I "ALMOST" did this once EXCEPT

A. My cast bullets were gaschecked
B. I was using smokeless powder
C. The group was really about 1.25".
D. I accidentally shot another target with the 10th shot...but it would have been in the center of the group...really ....crap

I was using metallic sights too....sigh

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
...I remember something like less than 9 pounds with scope, no more than 10 power scope and over 224 caliber.

Hey VD, That takes the 26" Bull Barrel M700VLS out of the competition.

quote:

Meaning one can rebarrel, glass bed, float, and many other things as long as it was still in those parameters.....it's been a while and I likely have some of this wrong!!!!!

The ones I'm thinking about in my Safe are all just as they came from the factory in regards to those qualifications.

quote:

There is undoubtedly a lot of folks that have shot 1/2" three shot groups.....I've done it many times....but they was statistically a fluke.

When one has to shoot ten inside an inch (Center to center) and prove it and notarize it.....the number of 1/2" shooters falls to damn few.

I may be in trouble on these requirements as well. The vast majority of my "multiple shot groups" are actually "Cumulative 1-shot Groups" after cleaning and re-lubing the bore. So, there is no change in the Bore Condition from Shot-to-Shot in most of mine.

Haven't needed anyone to "Notorize" any groups I've shot in many years. I do understand "why" that would be a concern though.

quote:

If this was twisted to say "using a hunting grade bullet from anyone" the number would go down.....as it puts matchkings and A-Max's out!!!

Maybe I could get "extra credit" for using a (ripping) 150gr Rem PSP in the 350RemMag, which is obviously no where near Match Grade and it has to jump 0.264" to reach the Lands in my rifle.

Or the 50gr Rem PLHP (randomly selected) in the 223Rem, which is as about as inexpensive a Bullet as is made.

quote:

I'm fully aware that this "feat" has nothing to do with hunting......as 10-shot groups mean nothing to a hunter.

Completely agree.

I think Reloader, or someone else, mentioned a Time Constraint too. That would also let me out since those Cumulative 1-shot Groups take me most of a day. And I generally take 4-8 rifles when I go.

My requirements are just to "beat" whoever is at the Range with me. Not a lot, I might want him to buy the BBQ - AGAIN!!!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
Back in the 60s Sierra run a deal where they would send a bronze pin to anyone that could shoot a 1" 10-shot group at 100 yards. Anyone remember it?

You had to use Sierra bullets and take your target to an NRA member to measure it and a notary and have it notarized. Send it to Sierra and they sent you a bronze lapel pin.

I've never seen one of those pins in my life.....ever!

They dropped that deal later and then I finally actually shot one of those groups. Heck!

Has anyone here actually shot a 1" 10 shot group at 100 yards using a standard hunting rifle.....not a bench gun mind you...a real off the shelf hunting rig.

3 and 5-shot groups don't count here.

Does this rifle count? Stevens .243 with a factory varmint barrel. No modifications other than a Choate UVS. If this rig counts then put me down for a 20 shot rapid fire group at .849" shot last Saturday. Rapid fire meaning as fast as I could eject one, replace it, write the chrony speed, aim and fire.

I wanted to try and simulate an F-class competition, though off the bench.

Later the same day, using a different bullet/powder combo shot a 10 shot rapid fire group at .571".


I'll post the photos and load data if you'd like.

quote:

Does this rifle count? Stevens .243 with a factory varmint barrel. No modifications other than a Choate UVS. If this rig counts then put me down for a 20 shot rapid fire group at .849" shot last Saturday. Rapid fire meaning as fast as I could eject one, replace it, write the chrony speed, aim and fire.

I wanted to try and simulate an F-class competition, though off the bench.

Later the same day, using a different bullet/powder combo shot a 10 shot rapid fire group at .571".

Yea...why not...it counts.....but Sierra's offer ended forty years ago!!!...wherewas you then?

Damn good shooting BTW!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Does this rifle count? Stevens .243 with a factory varmint barrel. No modifications other than a Choate UVS. If this rig counts then put me down for a 20 shot rapid fire group at .849" shot last Saturday. Rapid fire meaning as fast as I could eject one, replace it, write the chrony speed, aim and fire.

I wanted to try and simulate an F-class competition, though off the bench.

Later the same day, using a different bullet/powder combo shot a 10 shot rapid fire group at .571".

Yea...why not...it counts.....but Sierra's offer ended forty years ago!!!...wherewas you then?

Damn good shooting BTW!!!!!

Thanks, but I can't take credit for a really accurate rifle. All I did was come up with the loads that it loves.

Bench shooting isn't really the test of a marksman in my opinion, but the thing is too darned heavy to shoot offhand, lol.

so tell us....what, in your opinion, makes that gun so accurate?

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
so tell us....what, in your opinion, makes that gun so accurate?

vapodog, I have no idea what makes it so accurate. This is the first centerfire rifle I've owned in 30 years and bought to learn to reload with.

The first day I went out with the sporter barrel I found a load that shot a 5 shot ragged hole. I kind of got hooked on accuracy at that point. I then started reading about F-class and I got the idea to try to build a decently accurate F-class rifle on a shoestring.

So I bought the Choate Used/never used and put it on. I bought a factory take off barrel and the guys at Savageshooters.com walked me through the barrel change, and now I have a 500 buck tack driver. Maybe I got lucky, or maybe Savages are just really good out of the box.

You probably know more about it than me.

quote:

Originally posted by thrilledtobehere:
...Bench shooting isn't really the test of a marksman in my opinion, ...

Excellent words of Wisdom!

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by thrilledtobehere:
...Bench shooting isn't really the test of a marksman in my opinion, ...

Excellent words of Wisdom!

True,,,,,but it is the way to test accuracy of ammo and rifles.....that is assuming the shooter knows his stuff.