I've spent a bit of time now with my pre 64 winchester trying to work up an accurate load using the 200gr sierra gameking bullets. I spent a while using some 4831 because it was all that was in stock at the time, and didn't get the best results.
Eventually I used a bit of 4350 and got groups under 1" using cci magnum primers. I tried some loads with winchester large rifle primers and didn't get as good of groups (using more powder per book.)
So back to the load using cci magnum primers. went to the range with a fouled gun and the first 3 shots went into a 1" box. I raised the group to shoot about 1" high then shot a 5 shot group at 200 yards, the first 2 rounds were almost touching and the rest were up and down making a 3" group.
Anyways, back to the actual reloading, the problem I think is in measuring the 4350. When I was starting I would weigh charges and trickle in to make it exact (digital scale) but after a while I would set the old rcbs powder dropper to drop about the right amount and I would weigh it every time before using it to make sure. The volume weighed groups would usually be very consistent velocity wise (horizontal groups) compared to weighing which would usually give a round group. The problem is sometimes the charge weight would vary up to .5 gr sometimes, which I try to filter out but the variance sometimes exists and usually causes a slight flier out of the group (vertically.)
I'm really just looking for a solution to metering the 4350 better than I am now, or possibly some other solution to get better consistency out of the gun.

ive found that i could never truly get consistent enough results with a powder measure for target shooting. for hunting its ok and it wont throw the shots off that much. for getting small groups i always weigh my charges and trickle to the desired amount. you can try for some more consistency though by tapping the handle of the measure a few times in the down position to settle the powder better. also try tapping it a few times in the fully up position to make sure all the powder drops out.

Hey Sagi
An extruded powder like IMR4350 will just not meter well.. It's nothing you are doing wrong. The kernels are too large to consistently throw equal charges. A ball powder, on the other hand, will throw more consistant charges.

When I am charging cases for hunting, which are usually up there towards book max, I use the powder measure only to get me 'close', just shy a few tenths to what I want, put the charge on my electronic scale, and then trickle the rest in, then drop it in the case.

Sometimes, since the powder measure is throwing charges that vary a few tenths, I will get one that is right on the money.
So, if you want all your charges to be the same, it's just a time consuming process, no getting around it.

Just to further illustrate how different different rifles are, my .300 H&H loves H-4831 with 200gr bullets.. Go figure..

Thanks for the replies, I figured I might be running up a slippery hill trying to get this powder to meter. I kept hearing from multiple sources that volume is more accurate than weight, yet these people might be using ball powder. Is it worth messing with H414 in this big caliber?
It probably would be safer to weigh each charge nearing max, but I'm fine with the good load out of this going either 2700 or 2800fps (max 2900) since I used to have a 30-06 and figured that could kill anything in my neck of the woods, this is plenty without being ludicrous (win mag, wby, etc)

I'm tempted to buy one of those rubber barrel dampeners for this gun to see if that helps, is it worth the 30 or so bucks for one? Maybe before that I need to shoot it into a hunk of bone in front of wet clay to see if the thing will fragment because these gamekings are known to be soft (pro hunter ones on the other hand are great, but they don't make 200's) and if they don't perform well I'll just get some partitions. but being half the cost I do hope these work out.

Love H414, use it for my son's 7mm-08 & my 300 & 375 H&H

is the rifle bedded? may be better to spend the 30 bucks on a glass bedding kit from midway and make sure the barrel isnt touching anything. those rubber things do work but you will waste a lot of ammo trying to find the sweetspot. i was given one by the buyer for a chain of stores i worked for because they wanted me to test it. i did it on a .22 mag and dropped groups from 1.25 inches to a smallest of .6 with an average of .8 inches. thats almost a 40% reduction in group size on average with box ammo. took me 300 rounds to find the sweet spot firing 2 3 shot groups from every .25 inch move of the damper

to my way of thinking there is no reason to use stick powder,where there is a ball powder with similar burn rate.

quote:

Originally posted by Abob:
Love H414, use it for my son's 7mm-08 & my 300 & 375 H&H

What bullet weight for the 300? I just might give it a try, but I only have about 70 rounds left and grafs is sold out of them.

I was thinking that would be the problem with the dampener, that it would need a sweet spot. probably worth it if I had a .223 or something that ate cheap ammo. Now that I think about it, the poor thing isn't even glass bedded at all. It is sitting in a bishop stock that works great as is, but it also needs to be cut better because the tang protrudes a little at the back. Should I go for metal pillars while I'm at it? being able to pull the stock and have it remain consistent would be great because I might have to do that (it loves to rain when I go hunting)
I'm thinking this would be a post season project since deer season is, well, now.

pillar bedding requires drilling into your stock but isnt that much harder than glass. i glass bed all my rifles. injection molded stocks dont seem to let the glass bedding stick to them. in that case you would need pillar bedding. some rifles you can also buy an aluminum bedding block that you rout out your stock and epoxy it in there but theyre over 100 bucks each.

it rains frequently here too and ive never had a problem with the glass bedding changing the point of impact. even in sub zero temps on coyote hunts.

I really like (IMR) 4350, it has produced good groups and decent velocity in a number of calibers for me. In terms of metering, though, it is probably one of the most difficult powders I know of. I still intend to use it in the future, and I expect to have to live with slow charging times at the reloading bench. Even my RCBS electronic dispenser/scale has trouble getting the charges just right...

- mike

imr 4350 has gotten my friend a one hole group out of a custom made 358 norma mag.

The whole rain/cold weather thing has more to do with taking the gun apart 2 or 3 times between sighting in again, and hoping it goes back on shooting right.

I'm not sure if I'll use h414, the 200gr loads are 300fps slower than the other two imr powders, but it looks good on 165's. My nosler book has h870 listed with some impressive numbers, but that powder seems to have gone the way of the dodo. h450 is listed, that too is gone.

I doubt that your accuracy challenges have that much to do with the consistency (or lack thereof) of your powder charges. But like you, I also feel more comfortable with a powder that is conducive to consistent charging.

I use IMR-7828 SSC (super short cut) in my .300 H&H with 180 grain bullets and it provides excellent and consistent velocities (chronographed) and outstanding accuracy. It also meters well enough to dispense with weighing each charge.

For a number of reasons, I tend to like the slower powders that come closer to filling the case, so I might recommend that you try IMR-7828 SSC. Another good choice would be H4831 SSC.

To my tastes, 4350 is a little on the fast side, but if you like it you might try Accurate 4350 which is a short cut version and should meter somewhat better than the IMR version. The buring rate of the 4350's is better suited to 150 and 165 grain bullets than to the heavier pills.

I was loading 220gr Hornady RNs for black bear hunting out of a stand over bait

4831 ssc might be worth trying. I think I did use some accurate 4350 with 180 bullets a while back with no particular good results. Is the data for the ssc powders the same or close to the normal? I might try that again if I can find it in stock.
The case being filled I thought would be a problem so I tried non magnum primers and loaded up more powder, they shot the same vertically so I know they were the same velocity as my magnum primer loads but they didn't group as well for some reason (a whole 8 grains more.)
I can't seem to find a 220gr load for h414 anywhere, I might try 4831 for it though, I have exactly 34 nosler partitions to load up eventually.

Maybe I'm confusing the 220gr with some 190gr moose loads I cooked up, I'll have to check my log book when I get home, but I'm sure I built some 300 H&H loads w/H414

Don't think you can go wrong with the 4831, I just got some of the SC

is the sc/ssc 4831 a hodgdon or imr powder?

I tried loading some 220 gr nosler partitions earlier today, and couldn't seem to get them to stick in the brass, a slight push would have them fall in the case and I'm pretty bad at using the dies to crimp without them bowing out (won't chamber then) the long wide taper of the bullet might be the problem because I have to push it in pretty far to get it off the rifling. and the load of 57 grains of imr4350 leaves the case pretty empty (magnum primers, 5-7 gr less than standard, still a tossup for what one is better)
I just need to get these things to stick to the case somehow.
Should the lee crimp dies in 300 wby work on this?
rumor has it this caliber eats away at the throat over time, so maybe i need to just shoot a few thousand rounds to seat the bullet further out

Back to H414, I personally have no 2d thoughts about substituting W760 load data when using H414, so if a manual shows W760 and not H414, I us it; that is what I do, not recommending it

H4831 SC

Believe the proper Lee crimp die is 300 RUM, but you should double check on the Lee website

Sounds like your dies are not adjusted correctly if you are getting no crimp at all

quote:

Back to H414, I personally have no 2d thoughts about substituting W760 load data when using H414,

H-414 and WW-760 are the same spec powder. They will vary from one another about like you can expect one lot of either to vary from other lots of the same powder.

Either of these powders will yield acceptable results in a .300 H&H but are on the fast side for optimal velocities when using mid-weight and heavier bullets.

I thought the 300 wby was just an "improved" h&h so the cartridge length was the same but i'll check.
i loaded the bullet and backed the seater off a bit and started lowering the whole die a fraction of a turn at a time and it seems to bow it out as soon as it starts to crimp. It might be that the old dies weren't designed to crimp, or do it poorly. the rcbs dies came in a cardboard box.

I also have in my notes somewhere that h414 is w760, like how h110 is w296. I hear they come from the exact same bin of powder but I'll double check before I use those loads. What is more surprising is when the books list the two powders with slightly different numbers.

In the Nosler #6 manual, it lists the most accurate powder tested as H4831SC for the Winchester Magnum version. Checking the Hodgdon data center, the max listed for both the H&H and Win Mag as 72 grains, so I would think it would work fine.



I just got finished with load development on my A-Bolt Win Mag with the 200 grain Sierra GK and H4831SC. It shot pretty well; .675" 100 yard 3-shot and a .992" 200 yard 3-shot. Got 2925 fps, which my coach says is good

Checked my records, H414 was with 200gr bullets

Used H4831 with the 220gr

I'll see if I can grab a pound of 4831 sc for the 220's hopefully I can get them to seat by then. and Abob you are right the 300RUM is the same length as the h&h, the weatherby is a little shorter. At 16 bucks it should be worth trying.
I should be able to get some H414 but I might put that off until I get the gun bedded and can find some more bullets (can't find the sierra 200's anywhere, and I don't feel like spending 70c a round for some premium bullets, although I probably would get some 200gr partitions if the sierras fall apart too badly on bone)

*edit* Found some H4831sc so now to try to get the 220's to seat right... I don't think I have enough sierra 200's to afford to work up a load with that yet, maybe once I get another box in hand.