Is it realistic to expect to acheive 2,100+ fps with the 500 grain Barnes Solid in one of the new Winchester Model 70 .458's with a 24" barrel?

I know these bullets are pretty long and would probably eat up a lot of room in a case that doesn't have much room to start with.

Has anyone chronographed this bullet in a .458 Win Mag out of a 24" barrel?

I have considered having a .458 LOTT built, but if it is realistic to get 2,100 fps (safely) with the 500 grain Barnes Solid, I would just stick with the .458 Win Mag.

Thanks!

Tim

Tim,

I have had 3 M70 458s but they were the push feed Super Grades with 22 inch barrels.

Never chronographed 500 grain solids.

But if I was to use them I would try IMR 4198.

Our Australian powder that is the equivalent to IMR 4198 gives full velocity with 500s and room to spare. However, I think IMR 4198 might be bulkier than our powder.

As near as I can remember I got 2070 f/s with 500 Hornadies in the 22 inch M70s and about 2150 f/s in a Ruger Number 1 with 24 inch barrel.

Using our version of IMR 4198 if I had to bet I would bet that ina 24 inch barrel I would get 2100.

By the way, any of the powders that Hodgdon list as "Extreme" or Short Cut, are the Australian powders.

Varget is also one of the Australian powders.

So perhaps they may sell the Australian version of IMR 4198 under some name or other.

Also, 70 grains of the Australian version of IMR 3031 gets 2070 in the 22 inch M70s.

By the way, if you have not used a 458, you will find that full loads with 500 grain bullets may greatly reduce your desire for a 458 Lott.

Mike

Tim, I don't think you will be able to get 2100 fps. with the 500 gr. Barnes Super Solid
because it is a very long bullet that takes up too much powder capacity in the small 458 Win. case. I believe a powder as fast as IMR 4198 will be too fast to achieve max, velocitys in most 458s with 500 gr. bullets. The fastest powder usable that will give near max. velocitys is IMR 3031, however this powder is bulky and I don't think you will be able to get enough into the case to reach top velocitys with the 500 gr. Barnes Solid. On the subject of the 458 Lott, it is a superior cartridge to the 458 Win. In my opinion the 458 Lott or something like it is what Winchester should have brought out instead of the current 458 win. that really does not have enough case capacity to drive 500 gr. bullets at respectable velocitys(2300 to 2400 fps). If I were you I would strongly consider rechambering to the 458 Lott. If you want to keep your rifle as a 458 Win. you might want to try the Speer Grand Slam Solids, these bullets have a core that is heavier than lead so they are short for a 500 grain bullet. These solids would be a better choice in the 458 Win.

[This message has been edited by Mitch (edited 05-07-2001).]

Tim:
I agree with Mitch. I dought You can get the Barnes going much over 2K for the reasons you both mentioned. And yes a better solid would be the Speer AGS as Mitch said. What I do with my .458 is use AA2460 powder as it is slower than the 4198 & 3031, but more importantly is has a smaller volume/grain, so you can get more grains in the .458 case. If I wanted to use a solid on dangerous game with my .458, I would use the Speer 500gr AGS over 78grs of AA2230 or AA2460. They are almost identical. I will get about 2250 ft/sec with this load in a .458 win. mag.. But if you would like me to shoot a Barnes through my chrono. Send me two or three (bullets only) and I will push them as fast as I can get them to go. I would also like to measure the hardness & density of the Barnes bullets. Email me and I will send you my address.

Johnny B,

I pick up my .458 on Thursday and I'm still waiting for the 500 grain Barnes solids I ordered. Actually, I ordered 500 grain Hornady Solids & Softs, and the Barnes. They should all be here early next week. I have 1 lbs. of IMR3031 and H4895 that I will use to see what kind of velocity I can achieve. I'm going to load up a bunch of semi-mild loads of the Hornady 500 grain softpoints to sight in my scope (Leupold VIII 1.5-5x) and to break in the barrel. After that, I will see what kind of chronographed velocity and accuracy I can get with some of the hotter loads using Barnes 500 grain solids.

Depending on what velocity/accuracy I get, I may try the AA2230 or AA2460 powders you suggested. I agree that good velocity can be achieved with the Speer tungsten (sp?) solids, but at over $4.00 per bullet, it may be a bit expensive to get a load developed. I'll see how I do with the Hornady and Barnes bullets first. At velocities at or below 2,100 fps, I'm pretty sure the Hornady and Barnes solids would perform without any trouble. I'll let you know how my load development turns out. Thanks.

Tim

Tim,

Try Hodgdon H335 powder. I have been able to achieve over 2,150 fps muzzle velocity with a 22 inch barrel using this powder.

Good Hunting !

There has never been any real problem with getting 2100 FPS out of the 500 gr. 458, but doing so without powder compaction is the real problem and thats what gets folks upset in Africa with the 458...

But all is not lost, use Pumbas suggestion of H337 and use the Speer AGS bullet that is the shortest of the lot.

Don't try useing lighter bullets, thats the foolish approach to dangerous game and shy away from the Barnes bullet as it takes up all the powder space in both the std. and the Lott..Thus low velocity.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I shoot an older Ruger M77, 22" bbl .458 WM. Using IMR 3031 powder, 67.5 grains and the 500 gr. Barnes Solid I am getting a measured 2085.7 fps. The load is obviously heavily compressed and held in place with an outlandish crimp from a Lee Factory Crimp die I had custom made ($25). The crimp to keep the bullets from backing out I could not achieve with the standard crimp/seat die without buckling one in ten cases. The Lee die solved that nasty little problem. This load is not maximum in pressure, but I think it is in powder volume with this bullet. Like was said, it is rather long and cuts down on case cap. quite a bit, and while I did not get 2100 fps with the barnes, I did come close and pressures are OK even on 90 degree days. Just for information purposes only, using the 500 gr. Hornady bullet with 68.5 gr. of IMR 3031 powder I could only get 2052.9 fps, and this load is max in pressure in my rifle.

Could someone tell me the problems with compressed loads? The loading manuals list quite a few compressed loads for the .458. It seems I heard that the powder clumps and causes erratic ignition. Did this only occur with the older factory loads or can you expect this to happen with these newer loads and powders. I ask these questions because I am getting ready to start reloading some .458 and I am a rookie. Does the age of the ammo cause problems with compressed loads?
Ralph

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Ralph, The erratic ignition you speak of happened for the most part with older factory ammo that used ball powders. Ball powders can be difficult to ignite especially with heavily compressed loads. New factory ammo with modern powders do not have this problem.

Mitch
On the compressed load issue and ball powders. As I stated above, I use 78 grs. of AA2230 ball powder as a compressed load in my .458,; Do I run the risk of a hang fire? Will the use of WLRM or Fed 215 primers solve this potential problem? Are compressed loads, good, bad or indifferent with the exception of the ball powder issue? As a new handloader I have never been sure of what the effects of compression are on a load. I know you are right about ball powders being hard to ignite add large capacity cases, like the .458, cold weather and now compression to the combination and you could get a hang fire. Do you think the Hottest primers (WLRM & Fed 215) would handle this situation? or should I stay away from loading ball powder in the .458?

JohnnyB, The problem with hang fires and squib loads with the 458 Win. happened quite a while ago. With modern ball powders I don't think this should be a problem. I have touched off 137.0 grains of H870(a ball powder) in my 378 wby. with no hang fires or squib loads(I was using fed. 215 primers). The most common cause of hang fires is a very large case with a relatively small amount of powder, this is the reason why a filler is often used in these situations to keep the powder next to the primer for better ignition. The problem with early 458 win. factory ammo was low velocitys & squib loads caused by the heavily compressed loads of the ball powders of that time. I have not heard of this happening with modern 458 win. factory ammo, nor have I heard of anyone loading the 458 win. ammo having this kind of problem. If you have not had a problem with your load of 78.0 grs. of AA-2230 I would continue to use it. You can always go to a hotter primer if you run into a problem, but I don't think you should have any problems with this load. There is nothing wrong with having a compressed load. Compressed loads can be very accurate and are perfectly normal. Many loads with 500 grain bullets in the 458 win. are compressed loads, these loads are safe and trouble free if the recommended loads are not exceeded.

[This message has been edited by Mitch (edited 05-19-2001).]

I don't know if this is just a left-over habit from 25 years ago, but I always use a magnum primer with ball powders. I've never had a problem, but this might be overkill with today's powders.

If you do decide to change primers it's good practice to drop down 5% and check the performance before working up to the load.

I have heard that some of the problem .458 loads were so tightly compressed that when the bullets were pulled the compressed ball powder stayed in a solid clump. I like slightly compressed loads, but that is ridiculous!

Don

[This message has been edited by Don G (edited 05-19-2001).]

Try convincing an African PH on the issue of compressed loads, and don't tell them it still doesn't happen with modern ball powders, it does and they know it...Last year a prominent PH dug a 500 gr. BX out of his elephants head with a pocket knife...the first one went through the head, the 2nd went 3".....compaction with ammo loaded a year prior to the hunt...

I suppose some of you will argue this until your blue in the face, right or wrong you won't catch me in that position with Tembo looking at me with thoes little pig eyes, not on your life...or rather mine, you can do as you please..

I won't even use the .458 Win.because of that and I know it can be loaded properly...I can cut a Lott chamber in 20 minutes and make it feed in a week...or better yet use a 416 Rem..or 404...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Have to agree with Ray, no reason to risk the potential dud or hangfire when the Lott is such an easy and reliable cartridge to work with.

Ray:
Are you saying that compression of ball powder, regardless of case/caliber, has the potential of misfires and or squib loads? In other words, you would not be 100% confident of any compressed ball powder load. How do you feel about compressed non-ball powder loads?

Tim:

I was shooting my .458's yesterday, here are the results:
May 20th, 2001

Velocities of 500 grain Hornady Bullets (Soft & Solids)
.458 Winchester Magnum Rifle, 24� & 26� Barrels

Load information: Case; Winchester .458 Win. Mag.Primer; CCI 250Powder; AA2230C Ball Powder (Equivalent to AA2460)

Chronograph Distance: 15 feet from muzzle
74.0 grains of AA2230C Powder
24" Barrel = 2148ft/sec, soft
24" Barrel = 2183ft/sec, solid
26" Barrel = 2251ft/sec, soft

77.5 grains of AA2230C Powder
24" Barrel = 2251ft/sec, solid
26" Barrel = 2357ft/sec, solid

Temperature was 65F, sunny, beautiful day in Wisconsin. Loads where highly compacted, made 6 months ago. No mis-fires.

Is it ok to convert the older 22" barrel 458 winchesters to a 458 lott?