The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading Improving the quality of ammo; one load at a time...Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Over time, I have done almost everything I can think of to improve the quality of my hand loads. I am happy to report that the loads are better than before, but I'm not satisfied. Let me try to quickly describe my situation. I purchased a Hornady lock-n-load press, dies, scale (electronic type), digital caliper, and all the appropriate case prep tools to start with. I went into production and came up with usuable ammo for my 22-250s. In spite of all I could do, I saw some vertical stringing in my groups. I felt as though my cases were producing inconsistent pressures due to inconsistent powder charges. Furthermore, I never trusted that digital scale to begin with. The purchase of a RCBS beam scale helped a lot. When experimenting with seating depth, research quickly revealed a lot of variation in bullets and their o-gives. The Hornady bullet comparator body helped me to produce ammo that was consistent in it's free bore measurement. As expected, the quality of the hand loads improved a bit more. I have also invested in a Hornady case trimmer, both for convienance and in an attempt to keep the case mouths all square and neat. I don't know that the trimmer improved the quality of the ammo, but it is a tremendous help. I have tried to head space my ammo properly; (anyone interested in my methods for determining head space need only search the forum for my threads on the topic), but as I am not using an "official" tool and un orthodox methods, I will admit I could be wrong. I have given consideration to issues such as bullet run out and case wall thickness as well. I lack the tools to properly determine these specifics and/or correct them, so have tried to do the best as I can and forged ahead. The same applies to a chronograph, which I would love to have. I have a few questions here. Firstly, what tool mentioned here, or not mentioned at all, would be of the most benefit to the production of quality ammo? What tool might yield "the biggest bang for the buck"? A second question, I have my own opinions on, but would appreciate further input. What amount of powder is a "significant" amount of powder? In other words, if the weight of powder placed into the cases varies by 1/10th or 1/2 grain, does it make an appreciable difference in that rounds performance? Now, I would answer that it might vary from powder to powder, but I would like to hear other opinions. Are there any simple "tweaks" that I could try to improve my loads? Finally, I offer an open invitation for our readership to reply, adding any information they feel useful or appropriate. My thanks to everyone who will take the time to help a fellow re loader who wishes to improve his knowledge and the quality of his ammunition. | ||
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Jay; There is only so much you can do with your loads. The only real tweek i know is to be consistent My buddy only uses brass 1 time, What a waste for him. my gain, He gives me all his brass. The one most thing I have discovered is to anneil the brass ever second firing. I have found that part of what I was missing was bullet grip. You can also achieve this by crimping. and in crimping apply enough crimp to just grip the bullet. something to think about. Dave I suggest you get these books and read and reread. They may clear up some of your questions. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb...range+marksman&ajr=0 http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate...id=1334753604&sr=1-1 | |||
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My OPINION is that when a reloadershooter gains the experience needed to properly use 'advanced tools' he will likely know what he needs done and, from that, what tool will help him get there. Basically meaning that obtaining better/more accurate ammo is from skill, not a tool or specific brand/model of tool. Most of the questions you raise have to be answered by experience and such experience comes from personal experimentation; my experience helps me with my rigs and my work methods but my experience may very well not do a thing for you. That includes such things as Hivelosity's interesting thought on 'anneal every second firing'. It obviously works for him but not me and that's likely because he's better at annealing than I am. Meaning there are no methods that anyone can tell us that is sure to produce a given effect, we have to try it and see what happens; aka, gain "experience." A chronograph will tell you how fast your bullets are flying; it can't tell you a thing about how to make them fly more accuratly. | |||
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The greatest improvement of my loads came from 2 things. 1. Sizing the case straight to an exact fit to the headspace of the rifle with bottleneck rounds. 2. I bought a Hart Heavy Varmint bench rest and a set of Protecktor bags. The bags make every rifle and every load shoot better. That was about 25 years ago. The same rest is still in production. | |||
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vertical stringing is usually a case of a forend bedding problem. If the rifle is free floated, try putting a shim in to put a little pressure on the bbl. otherwise make it free floating | |||
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When you're talking about a "significant" amount of powder, you're really discussing percentages. If you have properly centered your load in a accuracy node, you can wander a bit on either side of the exact load without a problem. Various percision shooters have shown time and again, that varying the powder load by small amounts doesn't really affect its accuracy. If you are not shooting a precision one off target rifle, that is to say, a factory rifle, you only have a certain level of accuracy. Regardless of how many thingies you buy and how much you slave over the perfect cartridge. Before you invest too much money in thingies, you should be sure that your bench set up and your bench technique is up to the task. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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 Member NRA, SCI- Life #358 28+ years now! DRSS, double owner-shooter since 1983, O/U .30-06 Browning Continental set. | |||
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Jaybald1, Here's a good read for you. It might shed some light on what others have found works and doesn't. http://www.24hourcampfire.com/...in_accuracy_one.html http://www.24hourcampfire.com/reloading.html good shootin, sep | |||
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Just a thought, don,t imagine you,re crimping with 22-250, I could be wrong.. Also, guessing you,re using only one brand of brass, so this may have a negligible affect. Redding neck or full bushing die. Possibly give you a bit better control over neck tension, bullet release, more consistent pressure/ velocity... | |||
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Jaybald, I'm curious, what kind of groups are you getting and what kind of groups are you looking for? I've got a buddy that showed me a paper target with a .243 group in the .3's. I commented that was great and he said he was going to re-barrel the rifle! I put myself first in line for the take off. I'm asking just to get an idea of your expectations. Few things I've done to get better accuracy: Changed primers ( back your load down then work it back up with a new component. Weight sorted brass ( I've seen a little benefit). Neck sizing has helped. I even re- barreled a rifle. Once I knew the factory had reached it's potential and it wasn't good enough. | |||
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Many thanks fellas, this is all good stuff! I admit I was a bit concerned that you guys would read my post and say "you fool, here's what you're doing wrong!" Many times, I think that I am searching for a level of perfection that either does not exist or the rifles (or me) are incapable of. Still, I feel that that quest is a worthy one, and frustrating but fun too! To answer some questions and reply to some comments: I have changed primers and, so far, I prefer CCI BR 2s. They seem to work the best. Likewise, I have the best results with Varget powder, about 34 gn, in fact. The experiments with neck sizing or partial full length sizing have been less than satisfactory thus far. However, this experimenting has been done with an adjusted full length die and not a true neck die. I think the next purchase will likely be a neck size die, due in part to the fact that I too am convinced that my cases throats are not "clamping down" on the inserted bullets with equal force. The particular rifle I am loading for, at present, is a Savage Arms model 10 Predator rifle, straight off the shelf with no modifications. The barrel is free floated, at least to the extent thats how they are mass produced from the factory. Accuracy with this rifle is good, shooting approx 3/4 MOA with good quality factory ammo. On a really good day, I have placed two shots in the same hole, only then to have the next shots "fly wild". Normally my reloads do about as well, or a little better than factory ammo. I would like to develope this ammo to utilize the rifle to it full potential. Seeing that the rifle is sub-MOA with factory loads makes me believe that this rifle is a good candidate for accurate reloads. Knowing I sometimes get a start on a great group, only to have it ruined by a stray bullet, leads me to believe there is something wrong with my ammo. Inconsistent neck tension is the suspect, at this time, for me. Any thoughts? | |||
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Guy, if you are indeed getting .75" groups with factory ammo and a stock box gun, stop right there. Get you several boxes of factory ammo and head for the shooting matches. You'll win a bunch of them. Doesn't make any difference that you'll be shooting against fellows with factory rifles that have been bedded and tuned and had hands laid upon and all that. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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I personally think you are expecting Waaaaaaay Tooooo Much from yourself and the rifle. 0.75 inch groups are exceptional and not common among standard factory rifles. A couple of comments 1. Regardsing head space - see this video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...J1_E&feature=related. This was a big learning curve for me - after having been a reloader for over 10 years. 2. I would use a neck sizing die or a Redding bushing die with a bush size that matches your brass and also a Redding body die for full length sizing. That will ensure absolute consistancy & little chance of variations in adjustment for shoulder bump. 3. Are you using a chronograph? That is vital. 4. The stringing and flyers are a rifle issue or a rest issue. If the barrel & action are bedded properly or free floated, you may want to check how you rest the rifle on the bench. Here is what I learned 17 years ago when I started handloading. All my rifles are hunting rifles - 222 Rem, 243, 6.5X55, 7mm 08, 280 AI, 9.3X62 etc. in standard factory sporter models with the odd rebarrel job. I used to shoot at the range with the fore end resting on a sand bag. Some rifles were free floated and some were not. I used to get very frustrated with inconsistant groups. Sometimes I would shoot 5 shots into an inch and then I would get flyiers and then it would be 2 inches. A half inch 3 shot group would open to 1 or 1.5 inches. I also found that the point of impact on the sand bag was always higher than when shooting off hand, resting elbow on knees or prone. After about a year I narrowed the diagnosis down to how I rested the fore end on the sand bag. My theory is that the recoil of the rifle also affects the barrel harmoics if the fore end is touching a hard surface & hence the impact is high. The other hypothesis is that the flyers are caused by the same factor as I cannot possibly place the rifle on the sand bag at the exact same part of the fore end each time & hence there is bound to be inconstancy. I started placing the magazine area (behind the cartridge / chamber) on the sand bag. Bingo! My flyers disapeared and the point of impact became consistant. My groups iproved markedly & i was shooting 0.5 inch 5 shot groups with a Tikka 222 Rem & 0.75 inch groups with some other rifles. Now I can zero the rifle 2 inches high at 100 meters on the bench and be confident of shooting rabbits or deer at 300 meters. Yes I do miss the odd shot, but I am far more consistant than before. I hope this is of help. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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I do not know how many round have been fired through your rifle but you might try cleaning it as you shoot groups. Wipe with 2 wet patches then 2 dry patches. Use a wet brush every other cleaning until you think the bore is not picking up copper. This seems to be between 80 and 150 rounds round for most barrels I have messed with. The other part is do not lean on the butt with your face when shooting off the bench. You can touch it but do not use your face to hold the rifle down. When you quit that many fliers will go away. Just the weight of your face can bend the stock. It costs nothing to try it. | |||
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It is interesting, to say the very least, to read the last few posts offered by our readership. I would like to respond to some of what has been offered in the last couple of posts: Firstly, to the fellow suggesting that I am expecting too much; yes, I have about reached the same conclusion myself. Try though I might, I guess I am not, nor will I ever be, Carlos Hathcock. Secretly, I'm tryin like hell though! And about heading to the matches to compete; rifle competitions are rare around here, apart from seeing who can drink the most or find the most lint in their belly-buttons...I have often wanted to try though. And while on the subject, a fellow shooter who does shoot a little competitively, has shown interest in this rifle, but I am loathe to part with her. Money for rifles is too hard to come by, and a good rifle even harder! I would like to clear up a point about these tight groups. I get started on a 3/4 inch group at 100 yards, such as two in the same hole and a third very close, and then I get that flyer I mentioned. Poof, a good group shot, pardon the pun. Frustrating in the extreme. I have often wished that I had a better "shooting bench" from which to shoot. Which brings me to another clarification. My "shooting rest", if you would like to stretch the definition of such; is my Ford Explorer's hood, a back pack that carries my coyote calls and such for the fore end, but I did recently spring for a bag style rest for the butt stock. Upon recommendations from readers of this site, I did quit shooting from the bi-pod, and the performance of my ammo did in fact improve. Placed a measured 100 yards away is an old "saw horse", upon which I nail my targets. They are actually NRA 50 yard small bore rifle targets, but I got 250 of them for just a few bucks at the local shop. I was glad to get them that cheaply! I measure the groups I shoot with the same digital calipers that I use in re loading. I put each blade on the most distant edges of the impact holes and see what the caliper says. I subtract .224, as I'm shooting 22-250s. I'm certain these methods are not up to par with the way they do things at the national championship matches, but they suffice for my humble needs. Shooting in this manner and measuring this way I find the results as I have previously reported. I know this is a good rifle and that is one reason I try to keep the shot count to a minimum. 36 shots have traveled the bore, and no, I'm not cleaning the bore after every two or three shots. However, I think I may give this a try, just to see what might be accumulating in there. Furthermore, I am interested in the fact that so many have suggested neck sizing with bushings and such. I have tried some neck sizing by adjusting a full length die up in the press, but by the time I had enough tension on the throats to hold a bullet in place, I had already altered case dimensions, which defeats the purpose of neck sizing in the first place, does it not? Also, this method did no good at all for my group measurements, due at least in part to inconsistent neck tension, I'm sure. As I currently own full length size dies only, I am unfamiliar with the mechanics of neck only dies or bushings. Will someone tell me how they work, their actual effect and how to put them in the press properly? I feel this might be a great help. At the earliest opportunity, I will shoot again, taking care to not press the stock so tightly with my cheek weld. It's just that I have trouble keeping the positioning consistent... And perhaps most importantly, I guess I may have to break over and built an actual "bench rest" style rest. I have access to plenty of material, lumber, block and concrete. Does anyone have some drawings or designs on building a permanent bench rest? I would particularly need some advice on measurements and other specifics. I thank you fellows so much. You do not understand how good it is to have a reliable source of advice and someone to answer questions, as, in my opinion, these are sorely lacking here at home. | |||
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3 shots give you an idea of accuracy potential. 5 (or more) shots are a group. I still ain't buying you shooting consistant .75" groups --even if you're calling 3 shots a group-- laid out acrost your truck hood. The rifle may be capable of some fine accuracy but the rifle is only a part of the total effort. I've shot a lot of factory matches and when you're sitting around the store and some good old boy is telling you about his xxx that'll put 'em all in the same hole, blah, blah and you invite him out to a match, he either gets too busy or (more often than not) he comes one time and finds out what a real sub MOA group looks like and doesn't come back. A young poster one time asked "what is a good sized group?" My reply was that in cyberspace it can be anything you want it to be. I'm not unloading on you per se, but it gets tedious to read time after time after time about stuff that you know probably ain't true. Folks will tell you that I am quick to help out and give what knowledge I have to people starting out but give me and the other posters a break. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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Cartridge concentricity is important. You mentioned this in your first post. Bananas ain't gonna shoot well. A gauge isn't that expensive. Nearly all of the previous posters have given you good advice. If you can shoot sub 1.5" groups off the truck hood you are doing way better than average. | |||
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Any, and all readers are invited to believe what they want. I've no problem with that, I have a healthy streak of skepticism myself! Likewise, any and all posters are invited, moreover encouraged, to come visit our mountains and especially my home, where we can shoot and give me a chance to learn from the "old masters". .....and fact of the matter is, sir, compared to most shooters here, I am a rather poor shot. There are, sadly, those in this neck of the woods who shoot to eat. Most of those old boys are far better shots than I. It seems that the prospect of hunger tends to hone the skills... And you can believe that or not, as suits you. It matters not to me. The rest of you fellows are a real treat. You have no idea of how much I am learning from your posts. I thank each and every one. Keep the ideas coming! | |||
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As I asked, give me a break. I lived in WV for 10yrs and I know all that "ah'm a poor hillbilly just tryin' to feed my family" BS. As he stands there in a pair of $200 boots with a jacked up new truck sitting outside, If your friends are having to shoot to eat, it means they're spending their food stamps and wellfare checks on meth.  Aim for the exit hole | |||
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If it will make you feel any better, this kind of performance is not often indicative of either accuracy or inaccuracy. It is usually simple statistical dispersion. That is, if you examine ANY group of shots, some of the shots in the group will be very close together, while others will be much farther apart. All rifles and almost all shooters will sometimes shoot consecutive shots which touch or overlap. And everyone will shoot shots which are far enough away from the others that they choose to call them "flyers". Often they will even begin to imagine that they "knew" the shot would be out of the "group", and tell any witnesses standing around that it was a "called" flyer"...usually loudly enough to make one recall old Billy Shakespear's line "methinks the lady doth protest too much". To be a real called flyer, however, a person should not only be able to predict the shot would be out of the group before looking at where it landed, but he should also be able to make a fairly close prediction as to how far and in what direction it will be out. Of course, there are some rifles and some shooters which & who are sufficiently accurate that "called" flyers are genuine recognition of shooter's errors AS they occur and before the bullet arrives at the target. I am not trying to say that all such are ficticious or imaginary. What I am trying to point out is that there are NO rifles or shooters who one can expect to shoot 0.0" groups on demand. All rifles, ammo, nd shooters have built-in factors which cause dispersion to occur virtually all of the time....with some shots more dispersed than others. The problem is, we can never tell whether the next 3, or 5, or 10 shots we shoot will be the best group we will ever shoot, or possibly the worst. Usually the groups are somewhere in between. And it is a mathematical certainty that the more shots fired in any one group, the greater the chance for one or more shots being dispersed farther away from the exact point of aim. That's just one or more of those "worse" shots taking their turn(s) in the queue. That is also why in some rifle matches, 10 shots are the required number to be fired per group. It reduces the chance for a "lucky" group of 3 or 5 shots to win a match. Ten shots is more indicative of the "average" or "true' accuracy of that shooter, rifle, and ammo. So, if the two touching and the next ones farther out is not a thoroughly regular thing with you, your gun, and your ammo, don't worry too much about it. Just keep working on your rifle, your ammo, and most of all your bench technique, and things WILL get better when you have put enough shots downrange to peak your skills with that rifle and ammo. On the other hand, if it is the REGULAR way your rifle performs, you probably have either a gun problem, or a shooter problem. In that case, you need to very closely examine both the rifle and your own shooting technique, one at a time and separately, so you can tell which improves your groups most as you experiment with it. | |||
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Let me ask you something, if you set your rifle up in it's most stable position and put the cross hairs exactly on the bullseye, when you pull the trigger, does the cross hairs move?? If it does, you need to work on your bench technique before you start buying any more thingies. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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My experience of shooting from the bonnet of a truck is that it can be very unsatable. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Lots of good insight here. Here's another issue I've encountered recently while workin up a handload for one of my rifles...wind. Sounds obvious right? I referenced an online calculator which allowed me to input variables such as wind speed, distance to the target, ballistic coefficient etc. What I found surprised me. I'm shootin a 225 grain TTSX just over 2700 fps at 100 yards. In a 5 mph wind the bullet will move 3/10ths of an inch. With a 10 mph wind it will move 7/10ths of an inch. Neither scenario is good for shooting small groups to evalute different loads. Now, I head to the range at oh-dark-thirty when the wind is calm to shoot for accuracy. Under hunting conditions I'm not so concerned about it but for evaluating ammo while working up a load it makes a difference in group size. I'm not writing this to imply I didn't know wind affected a bullet. I just didn't realize it affected one this much at 100 yards. So, for load development I'll only shoot in calm or relatively calm conditions. Just one less variable to have to contend with. | |||
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Wind flags. They're a person that is looking for better accuracy's friend. They don't have to be some high dollar set like the stool shooters use. Simple rods or dowels with surveyor's tape on them work and work well. I've found the fiberglass plant stakes like you buy in the garden department work well. I set them up at 25yards, 50 yards, and 75 yards. I don't need to know what the wind is doing at the target, by then it's too late. You want the flags positioned so's you can see them in the scope when you're aiming at the target. You can wait until the wind is dead calm but that usually only happens in a perfect world. Watch the flags until they are all pointing in the same direction at what appears to be the most frequent velocity and shoot a shot holding dead center of the bull. How much it drifts is how much you need to hold off (Kentucky windage) or adjust your scope. Then it's a matter of waiting for the flags to be the same before you shoot again. One hint: if the wind is just nudging the bullets out of the bull, aim at the upwind edge of the bull. That will give you a full quarter or half of inch of drift with your bullet still striking in the bull. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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