I originally put this one under 'gunsmithing' but got no replies.

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I have this Savage Longbranch No.4 two groove 303Brit sporter. It is in line for a 257 Roberts barrel sometime in the future but for now I am interested in shortening the barrel, fitting a short overhang, over-barrel suppressor (maybe two baffles). The bore has visible rust damage. How short should I go? What kind of accuracy can I expect? (Given that the two groove barrel is not supposed to be that accurate to start with). Will lapping the bore before shortening help with accuracy? What bullets and loading would suite a shorter barrelled 303Brit. I was thinking of loading 150gr bullets to about 2400 fps so as to burn the powder inside the barrel. I don't mind lower velocity with heavier bullets but was thinking of those slightly longer shots that might present. The motivation is the carry of this gun in the deep woods, where my longer barrelled guns hook up all the time. Shoulder carry is the only option as I need both hands free.

Thanks in advance.

Since there are so many North of the Rio Grande type here I don't many know much about shortening a rifle .... and then making it longer than original by adding a suppressor.
What is the shortest legal barrel length permitted in Kiwi land?
Sent you a PM

I have hunted and shot on paper several 308's with barrels of 18 to 20". In fact that they are my favorite general purpose hunting rifle.

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then making it longer than original by adding a suppressor

Ahh... well ... yes ..! The idea is to add no more than 50mm to the barrel. So shortening to say, 18 inches would give me 20 inches or less. More likely 19 inches. But an 18 inch barrel is short for a 303 (I think). But if it works for N E 450 No2, it should be good for me!

Would I be better served with a faster powder in such a short barrel or just keep to a milder load with my regular powder (AR2208 aka Varget)?
Would a heavier bullet make better use of the available barrel length? (I doubt this rifle will have the accuracy for longer shots anyway, but I don't know). I am expecting performance closer to the 30-30 (which I consider to be quite respectable - I have read of folks who use the 170gr bullet in 30-30 for elk). I shot a red deer at about 160m with a 180gr Speer RN with a striking velocity of around 1750 fps and the damage seemed a little excessive with total penetration through both shoulder muscles, the only bone encountered being the ribs. My Dad used to hunt Cape Buffalo with a 35 Remington with a 20 inch barrel. Muzzle velocity was about 2000 fps for a 200gr bullet I think. Sooo ....... ? A 180gr RN with a muzzle velocity of 2000 fps? Or should I aim for 2200 fps?

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What is the shortest legal barrel length permitted in Kiwi land?

Good question! I will need to find out but I have seen some pretty short ones in the shops.

From your description I am assuming that your suppressor will have part of the "can" go back over the barrel itself, giving it enough of a volume for the gas, yet not lengthen the length of the rifle too much.

I have shot some suppressors of this type,on 223, 308 and 300 Win Mag rifles and they had about 4 to6 inches of "can" in front of the bbl and came back 12 to 18 inches back on the barrel.

They screwed to threads at the muzzle and had a rubber/plastic seal at the rear of the can.

You also might want to have some type of flange just behind the suppressor to deflect what gas escapes, so it not directed back toward your face.

While some subsonic ammo was shot in the 308's the other rifles, and usually in the 308's full power factory ammo was used.

Do not skimp on the length of the attachment threads.

Also after each firing, remove the can and clean the outside of the barrel, so you do not have a build up of powder residue or any rusting.

Also it does not hurt to put a little grease, like choke tube grease on the barrel threads.

Thanks for the tips N E 450 No2 . The suppressor you describe is the kind of thing I have in mind only mine will have less overhang. I had thought I could permanently attach it but now realize I can't. I had better open up my hornet suppressor and clean that! It is bare, shiny 4140 steel and has not rusted or dulled one bit after many wet trips - rain, dew, condensation. It gave me a false sense of security! I can only screw out the baffles for cleaning.

303Guy

Many suppressors cannot be taken apart.
On those, they are just soaked in some kind of cleaner every so often.

If the suppressor had any kind of brass or bronze material [rollled screen as an example], just be sure and not to use any type of copper disolving solvent.

If you do not take the suppressor off the bbl pretty ovften, residue will build up on the bbl making it hard to get off and damaging the rear seal.

The same is true of the H&K MP-5 suppressor.

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Originally posted by 303Guy:
...The bore has visible rust damage. (EDIT: Moved this next line up a bit.) Will lapping the bore before shortening help with accuracy?

Hey 303Guy, Though the Lapping might(or might not) help the accuracy, I'd try it after a good scrubbing to see how well it shoots as is. If it shoots small enough groups for you, then you have eliminated a Step. And Lapping might make things worse. You just never know.

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How short should I go?

Original Remington M7s and the old M600s came with short barrels and they did fine. Only problem was the larger the Bore, the more noise they made. But since you intend to hang a Supressor on it, that should calm it down a good bit.

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What kind of accuracy can I expect? (Given that the two groove barrel is not supposed to be that accurate to start with).

Only larry gibson or teanscum would be dumb enough to give you specifics on this.

There is no way to know how well any rifle will shoot - without shooting it. Even the very best rifles occasionally just won't shoot. And the exact opposite can also happen, a rifle that looks like it might not shoot well, shoots fine.

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What bullets and loading would suite a shorter barrelled 303Brit. I was thinking of loading 150gr bullets to about 2400 fps so as to burn the powder inside the barrel. I don't mind lower velocity with heavier bullets but was thinking of those slightly longer shots that might present.

Just flipped through some older Manuals and the Varget or IMR-4064 should do well with the 150gr Bullets. For the 174-180gr Bullets, then something in the WW-760, H414 and H4350 Burn Rate should work well. I've never loaded for this Cartridge, so what would work well is all speculation on my part.

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The motivation is the carry of this gun in the deep woods, where my longer barrelled guns hook up all the time. Shoulder carry is the only option as I need both hands free.

I do a good bit of (falling over stuff) slipping through the woods/swamps too. Normally I'm on flat but somewhat soft ground where footing can be a bit tricky and having both hands is an advantage.

I normally prefer the rifle in one of my hands all the time, but it isn't always practicle. In these situations, I have the Muzzle Taped shut with Black Electricians Tape. I want something strong on it, just in case I drop to a knee and the Muzzle touches the ground. Oh yes, I sling the rifle Muzzle down. That lowers the "Snag Factor" from overhead limbs, brush, and Man-Eating Briers. Plus it carrys better under a Poncho in the rain.

As you probably remember I am a staunch advocate of P-FLRing Cases so they are a Snug Fit when the Bolt closes on them. That really helps prevent the Bolt from being accidentally opened without you being aware the Bolt was hung on a limb. When the rifle is in your hands, it is nearly impossible for it to happen, but when it is slung, the focus shifts to moving through whatever is creating the problem.

Best of luck to you.

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If you do not take the suppressor off the bbl pretty ovften, residue will build up on the bbl

These are things I did not think of. I will design mine to clear any residue build up i.e. a rear seal sitting on a collar with deflector ring. I will also give it screw in baffles. I am hoping the reduction in recoil will allow a shorter stock.

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Oh yes, I sling the rifle Muzzle down. ... carrys better under a Poncho in the rain...

I tried that but it did not work for me - the rifle kept on sliding forward with the scope down. No doubt there is a way to do it. I have also considered a back pack or belt mounted scabbard. I found myself falling onto the rifle quite a bit. Most of the time I was able to take weight of the fall on my arms but the stock did take a few for the team. I will have to recheck the zero. This bush rifle is going to have the most robust scope mount you ever did see! (I made one for a friend that looked like an integral part of the receiver - silver soldered and screwed and blued. It was even from the same steel and had an integral rear iron sight). I intend making the mount so that the iron sights are readily usable should the lenses get too foggy. A scabbard could also be readily accessible if front mounted, from under a poncho. A down-slung rifle with a tight fit cartridge should also keep water out of the breach and hense, barrel (I hope). But, I tend to carry slung guns with an empty chamber.

I will test fire the gun before lapping. I just though I would likely get better accuracy results with the muzzle cut back a little to expose a 'fresh' section of bore.

I too always tape up my barrel[s] with electrical tape.

however if I am in a heavy rain, or a long rain I remove the tape, BECAUSE no matter what type of rifle I have used, bolt, lever, semi-auto, single shot, double, etc, rain ALWAYS gets in to the bbl through the chamber even if I have a cartridge chambered.

Even with neck sized ammo.

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Originally posted by 303Guy:
...I tried that but it did not work for me - the rifle kept on sliding forward with the scope down. No doubt there is a way to do it. ...

Hey 303Guy, I left out one minor thing , I always carry a Revolver or a Pistol in a holster on the same side as I sling the rifle when fighting through underbrush. The barrel snugs in behind the Pachmayer or Hogue grips and then the rifle doesn't "slide forward".

I use an early `70s vintage Uncle Mike's Synthetic Belt and Holster, which allows me to "slide" the Holster to any position on the Belt I desire. So, I can ease the Holster back a bit and make a nice "pocket" for the barrel to rest in when bending down.

Another nice benefit is I can slide the Holster all the way around to my left side when I get ready to sit, which puts the handgun in a cross-draw position. Forgetting to do this and having the handgun on the right side makes for a HUGE arm movement when trying to draw from a sitting position.
-----

I got a new Graff's catalog a day or so ago and flipped through it looking at what sizes of Bullets are available for your rifle. There was an amazing large amount of Bullets which "might" shoot in your rifle from a 74gr pistol Bullet through a 200gr Bullet from someone. Hornady even makes a 0.315" Lead Round Ball that "might" make a Plinker for you.

Interesting Cartridge. One of my buddies, Terry, had a 7.65x53Arg(same size Bullets) and he had lots of fun trying different things in it.

Best of luck to you.

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rain ALWAYS gets in to the bbl through the chamber

Thanks for the warning! Those boresnake things are becoming interesting!

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... in a holster on the same side as I sling the rifle when fighting through underbrush ...

Ahhh ... Hahhh ... !

I have tried pistol bullet in my 'good' 303 and the results were a bit dissapointing. Too much jump I think and too quick a twist for lead. I did get reasonable results with heavy cast bullets but the front diameter of my mould was too small for my bore. One day I shall make a custom mold for myself. The 303 is just too ideal for heavy casts to pass up! And with my paper cup method, I can load without any bullet distortion. Mmmm .... Round ball sounds like a good idea .... Maybe the paper cup will make pistol cast bullets work - I still have some.

There's something about battling the rain and mud and undergrowth and getting lost and ..... just gotta get back out there!
As someone said; "It's never too late to have a happy childhood!"

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7.65x53Arg(same size Bullets)

I didn't know that. The 7.62 Russian bullet fits but is a bit short to seat the conventional way. Accuracy was poor on first test.

One last thing, if it is a right-hand rifle and you Sling it Inverted on the right shoulder, the Bolt will be next to your body which protects it even more.

The buddy that had the 7.65x53Arg used all kinds of Bullets in it "at low Pressures". The rifle was what we used to call a "Barrel Rifle" in the Carolinas. That means they had a bunch of rifles stuck down into 30-55gal barrels and you just picked one out.

The Paper Wrapped Bullet sounds like a really fine idea. Best of luck with it.

Thanks for that Hot Core.
I have retrieved my No.4 and its turns out to be a Longbranch fitted with a 'made in England' 2-groove barrel - obviously fitted by someone who didn't have a barrel vice. After cleaning, the bore is not too bad! Certainly enough metal there for the rust pits to have no influence. The two, narrow, rifling grooves are clean and sharp. This barrel is not shot out. (I did not know that 2-groove barrels were made in England and that they were different from the American ones. In fact, I did not know that 2-groove barrels were inverted!) Well, I have fired two lead bullets through it - the first did not strip and I can't tell on the second as it was a tad faster and is too damaged. I will certainly do some accuracy benchmarking before I do anything to that barrel. (It could be a shooter!) I am going to have fun with this rifle!

Say, ... I was just wondering ... since this barrel is 90% bore diameter, would it shoot 308 bullets? Anybody done that with an English 2-groove barrel?

303Guy

I had a Springfield 30-06 O-3A3 with a 2 groove bbl once upon a time and it shot great with 180gr bullets.

The only way you can tell if your 303 will shoot good with .308 diameter bullets, is to give them a try.

However I would not think that "proper 303 bullets" would be hard to get anywhere in the former Commonwealth.

years ago i had several 2 groove springfields and they shot very well.

Thanks for that, N E 450 No2. Good thought on the 180's. My interest in the 308 bullets is the selection available. I can get 125gr spitzers in 311 but they are too short for the long throated 303. I was thinking of the 145gr to 165gr boat tail 308 bullets. The idea is to squeeze some use-able range out of this rifle if it is accurate enough (instead of rebarrelling to 257). I could then shorten my No.1 Mk1* LMLE for bush work. (It's no longer an 'L'MLE - it carries a No.4 barrel - it does not have the SMLE bridge and charger cut-away and has that big safety catch thing on the end of the firing pin. It also has a sporter stock on it).

Thanks for that swampshooter. Yup, I'm goint to have fun with this rifle! This week it gets its "303Guy" special scope mount base. (I have a jig that holds a No.4 true in a mill and a constructin/design that makes the base intergral with the receiver and has an rear iron sight milled into the base to suit the original front sight. I gave it the same 'squareness' of the receiver. It even looks good - I think).

"How short should I go? What kind of accuracy can I expect?"

Don't cut it below 16", add a half inch to that to keep the Batmen off your butt.

A short barrel, as such, won't hurt accuracy. May even improve it because it will be a little stiffer than a long barrel.

Thanks Jim C. <>< . I was thinking of no less than 18" but would love to go shorter. Perhaps I can shorten it in stages to see how long I can get away with. To me, it's a compromize between handiness, muzzle blast (hense the suppressor), and velocity (which equates to range).

But .... if this rifle is going to be accurate, then I am going to find another (cheap) L.E. with a stuffed barrel and bore it out to 357. (I know someone with a barrel making machine). I have always wanted a short barreled 350-303.

Hey Hot Core! Listen to this one from the Bullet Making section.

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I was wondering if it is possible to enlarge a jacketed bullet to the next size up by compressing it in a die? I have several thousand .308 FMJ on hand and would love to expand some to .312 to shoot in my '09 Argy.

Why the hell not....? That might just be the answer! Something else to play around with anyway.

I agree with Jim, I would not go below 18 inches.

Thanks N E 450 No2. No less than 18" it is. Would I be correct in thinking a 215gr bullet (I have half a box) would make better use of the 303 cartridge in a shorter barrel, given that it uses less powder anyway and would therefore lose less velocity in the shorter barrel? And produce less muzzle blast? (The suppressor is going to be single or double baffle only so will have limited effectiveness. In fact, the design I am thinking of will have a two stage deflector with both stages opening rearwards into the same chamber).

Hey 303Guy, I believe the old term for that was "Bumping Up" the Bullet. Can't remember who used to provide Dies for it, maybe Corbin.

From a purely technical point, I would think a pure Lead Bullet would work better for this than a FMJ. Simply because the Jacket will stretch on one side which would affect the Balance and Squareness along the longitudional axis. However..., it might not make a bit of difference in the groups for some of those old rifles.

But I remember reading about folks with the HUGE old rifles doing it many many years ago because Bullets for them were hard to find.

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the Jacket will stretch on one side which would affect the Balance and Squareness along the longitudional axis

Aahh! True. Maybe the best I can do then is change the ogive of .311 bullets. I just had a look at the BC of my 180 .311 Spee RN's and it is not bad at .329. That gives me a useable range of 300m starting of at 2450 fps and the 303 can deliver 2500 fps with a 180gr with H4350 and 2560 with BL-C(2) - which I can't get. Still, I cannot see any reason why my 7.72mm bore (.304") barrel with it's two narrow grooves, should not work with .308 bullets. The bullets will not fill the grooves, that's all (0.2mm engagement per groove but full body support with 0.4mm swageing). I'm going to 'extort' a few samples from my buddies and try them! I am pretty excited with the prospect of shooting 220gr cast bullets at 1700 - 1800 fps from this gun. I shall be making my mould as soon as I have the scope bases done! It will be a hollow point).
(Hey, which is it mould or mold ?)

IF I remember correctly, 18" is the legal limit for shotgun barrels, 16" for rifles. Add a half inch to either to keep idiot BATF black suits from getting too jumpy.

For sure, you don't want to cut a barrel below the legal length. Mr. Randy Weaver cut one a half inch too short so a highly trained Batmen/FBI black-suiter shot his wife and 11 year old son to death for it. Her as she stood in the door of their home with an infant in her arms and the boy in the back as he was running for home; that's for those of you too young to remember Ruby Ridge. Well, maybe the "law" did have reason to fear their lives were threatened by the boy, he did have a .22RF in his hands as he ran away.

Now, I wonder where Mr. Ron Horuchi, that most excellant sniper/marksman and defender of truth, justice and the American way is today? I assume the Feds are still hiding him in luxery, at our expense. ??

Personally, I wouldn't cut it below 20". Once had a friend who cut an 03-A3 to 18". The muzzle blast would almost knock down brick walls!

Well, 20" is still short and the muzzle blast aspect is a serious consideration. So I'll take your advice and not go less than 20". And if it is a shooter I won't go less than 23" (that gets rid of the muzzle lugs and step down).

Progress has been slow. The barreled action is sitting mounted in a jig, ready for milling but no time yet! I'm just sooo keen on testing it with a variety of bullets. I do know that it has a nice tight chamber.