Does anybody here have any experience with duplex or triplex 454 Casull loads? Look what Santa is putting under the Christmas Tree below...my bullet caster says a Freedom Arms Casull is all but indestructible with Winchester 296 and mentioned people even do compression loads with two or three layers of powder to make sure all the powder burns. Anybody, anybody?











http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti....aspx?Item=381061551

How pretty is that! Nice grips as well.
I've never messed with the duplex/triplex loads. I think the single load information is more than enough.

If I remember rightly, I think Elmer Keith experimented with duplex loads, but I am not sure his results were.

Our own experience with duplex loads was in the 700 Nitro Express.

We found we were not getting consistent ignition, so we tried putting 2-3 grains of Bullseye at the primer before adding the normal charge.

Worked great.

I don't believe FA is still offering factory loads for the Casull, but when they did they used Accurate Arms #9. That particular powder has a tendency to burn slower than "advertised" when used to shoot a heavy bullet, and I believe FA chose to use it for that very reason.

I would strongly advise you not to play with duplex or triplex loads. The 50Kcup pressure area the Casull operates in is sufficient to burn all the powder in the case. I have one, and it works just fine with WC 820.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
If I remember rightly, I think Elmer Keith experimented with duplex loads, but I am not sure his results were.

Our own experience with duplex loads was in the 700 Nitro Express.

We found we were not getting consistent ignition, so we tried putting 2-3 grains of Bullseye at the primer before adding the normal charge.

Worked great.

Thanks, I kind of thought it would be something like that and maybe the tri is another couple of grains on top, I don't know. Don't get me wrong, I'm not the kid of guy who just wants to make the biggest bang, it's just interesting to maybe experiment with. I do plan to hunt Elk with it so a good, accurate powerful load would come in handy. Since I don't have it in hand yet, (probably Monday) I'm just gathering information. I have a small handful of middle of the road loads ready for when it comes.

quote:

Originally posted by pagosawingnut:
How pretty is that! Nice grips as well.
I've never messed with the duplex/triplex loads. I think the single load information is more than enough.

The one I ordered had rosewood grips I have several revolvers with that kind of wood) but I ordered that gun back in the spring of 2012 and expecting to put it under the Christmas Tree I started calling in November to see when I could expect it from a dealer in Colorado where I lived when I ordered it. I'm, still waiting for 3 return calls so I found this one on Gun Broker and I have to say I love those grips too, their kind of sexy.

Dick Casull experimented with duplex and triplex loads in the .45 Colt SAA he made before the .454 was developed.
I watched him shoot 5 gallon cans filled with water and the results were very impressive.

That Casull is beautiful.love the grips.

The .454 can easily do everything it needs to do with
single powders.

It is far too easy to make a mistake using duplex loads.

If you really want more power, get a 460 or 500 S&W.

Experimenting with multiple powder loads is a very
risky proposition.

That gun is too beautiful to take a chance damaging it with multi powder loads. Load it with recommended ones and enjoy it! Now, have to go wipe the drool off my monitor!

The problem you will have with compression loads is not being able to keep the bullets from jumping crimp. It is hard enough as it is with standard loads due to the sharp snap of the 454 Casull.
My advice is to skip playing with duplex loads because speed above a certain point in calibers such as this one due nothing to improve penetration.

OK duplex loads are off the table,

In the early years of this cartridge they did use duplex and triplex loads, I remember seeing some of them in print. The scheme was always a small amount of Bullseye then a larger amount of a medium burn rate powder then a larger amount of a slower powder. The fact this isn't done anymore is telling. I think the use of a small primer in the 454 is a mistake, I don't think a small rifle primer, even a magnum is powerful enough for reliable ignition of 296.

quote:

Originally posted by Suwannee Tim:
In the early years of this cartridge they did use duplex and triplex loads, I remember seeing some of them in print. The scheme was always a small amount of Bullseye then a larger amount of a medium burn rate powder then a larger amount of a slower powder. The fact this isn't done anymore is telling. I think the use of a small primer in the 454 is a mistake, I don't think a small rifle primer, even a magnum is powerful enough for reliable ignition of 296.

Interesting, I'll see what happens.

Yes in the early development they did use dup and trip loads; But they quit doing it and I would not do it. Too much risk. I use mag primers in my 500 Linebaugh with a case full of W276/H110 with no problems. I didn't know the 454 had small primers; as you said, try mag rifle primers; should work.
No duplex loads.

quote:

Originally posted by PeeShooter:
OK duplex loads are off the table,

If you have to ask how, you probably shouldn't do it.

I've done it before though. The scenario was a pretty slow powder that filled up a straight walled case pretty well but it couldn't be filled enough to get optimum velocity/pressure. If I remember correctly, I used Blue Dot for the fast powder. I had no bad outcome but accuracy results weren't rewarding enough to pursue it further.

Your Freedom Arms 454 Casull can take up to at least 65,000 psi. If you wish to shoot high pressure loads and be able to easily eject spent cases, you need to keep the cylinder meticulously clean and even then you may not get to 65,000 psi without difficult ejection. I would also suggest a Lee Factory Crimp Die if you don't wish the bullets to move under recoil.

The best way to make sure bullets don't "jump crimp" really has nothing to do with the crimp and everything to do with the sizing of the case. Handloader had an excellent article several years ago about this very subject, written by Ross Seyfried if memory serves. The gist of the article was to ensure the sizer ball was at least a couple of thousandths smaller than the projectile, and if you were having trouble with projectiles jumping crimp during firing, to take a few thousandths off the sizer ball.

The article showed a round loaded with a cast bullet, and the grease grooves of the projectile could be seen by looking at the outside of the case!

Well since I was born, pretty much everything I felt I needed more information about so I could have the best results; I asked first. So I'll agree to disagree with "If you have to ask, you shouldn't do it". Actually the most irresponsible approach is to take on the task thinking you know what you're doing when you've never done it before.

I know of a guy back in my home town that scoops a 454 shell full of 296, vibrates it down, tops it off and loads a bullet. He shoots them regularly. I asked about this because I live outside of the box a lot; it's a much more exciting life.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained I say. I'll get the gun, start loading and see where it takes me. I've loaded for about 40 years and develop loads for accuracy. Every caliber I load I can fire a 5 shot single hole, off hand group at 50' so I expect to find a sweet spot for this gun too.

Buy the way, I use a Lee Factory Crimp Die for all calibers I load though the Reading crimp die is recommended for the Casull. I have both and will see which gives me the best results.

TWO things:

1. the only revolvers I have ever seen blow up were by people messing with duplex/triplex loads.

2. thinking outside the box with powder mixing can get you a permanent home in one.


just sayin...

Just for grins.....try 37gr H110 with a stout construction 260gr jacketed flatpoint.

Lemme know how your hand feels after the second cylinder full.

I have custom Premier Grade model 83 with a 10in barrel. I have had it going on 20yrs now. That is a max load-not max for my gun, but a max load none the less. Mine has no sissy porting either. I get a bit over 2000fps and it will make you think twice about "hot" loads.

As far as scooping a case full of 296-which by the way is the same thing as H110-vibrating it down, topping it off and plugging it with a bullet, I call BULLSHIT!

I have some Freedom Arms proof loads(don't ask how or where I got them)and they are not constructed that way either.

The Model 83 is an incredibly tough chunk of 17-4. It still has an upper limit and I don't want to find it.

Playing around with duplex and triplex loads when there are single loads that will exceed the capacity of the shooter to maintain accuracy is just plain crazy.

If you must know, the powders involved are Bullseye, BlueDot, and H110/W296.

You will discover your model 83 probably shoots best with 285gr-371gr bullets at a few hundred feet per second below max.

The most comfortable load I shoot is a 352gr cast bullet at 1300fps. I have never recovered one, except from a sand pile. Shot lengthwise through an 800lb horse at 30yds-owner wanted it dead didn't care how. Killed two pigs and broke the cedar fence post behind them at 47yds.

Max ain't always best!

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
Max ain't always best!

I know...

You know if you want more power maybe one should move up to a 500 smith.

296 or H110 will take you where ever you want to go with a 454.I make practice loads with HS6 or Trail Boss.With stout loads you will be happier with Pachmeyer grips.Those slim wooden ones beat the snot out of your hand.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
You know if you want more power maybe one should move up to a 500 smith.

I don't want more powder, I'm simply exploring the options for loading a 454 Casull as I have heard of duplex and triplex loads, so I'm inquiring. Doesn't mean I'm going to do it., I'm simply gathering information.

I purchased a custom handmade firearm that is officially recognized by the State of Wyoming, to be the official gun of Wyoming. When I moved to Wyoming I decided I needed one and it's the most beautiful handgun I've ever laid eyes on. A Smith is a nice gun and you can find scores of them used (fired a box or so) because their a beast to fire and after the shooter gets the crap beat out of them, they quickly get rid of them. Cowboy guns on the other hand transfer recoil in a very different way so if you know how to shoot one right, you wont be beat up like a S&W 50.

[quote] A Smith is a nice gun and you can find scores of them used (fired a box or so) because their a beast to fire and after the shooter gets the crap beat out of them, they quickly get rid of them.[quote]

Andy knows what he is talking about... If you think a Smith "beats the crap out of you", wait until you touch off a load from that Casull!

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:
The best way to make sure bullets don't "jump crimp" really has nothing to do with the crimp and everything to do with the sizing of the case. Handloader had an excellent article several years ago about this very subject, written by Ross Seyfried if memory serves. The gist of the article was to ensure the sizer ball was at least a couple of thousandths smaller than the projectile, and if you were having trouble with projectiles jumping crimp during firing, to take a few thousandths off the sizer ball.

The article showed a round loaded with a cast bullet, and the grease grooves of the projectile could be seen by looking at the outside of the case!

The thing about it having nothing to do with crimping and everything to do with case sizing is simply not true. My bet is that neither you nor Ross have ever loaded full house loads for either a 454 Casull or a 460 S&W Magnum.

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:
[quote] A Smith is a nice gun and you can find scores of them used (fired a box or so) because their a beast to fire and after the shooter gets the crap beat out of them, they quickly get rid of them.[quote]

Andy knows what he is talking about... If you think a Smith "beats the crap out of you", wait until you touch off a load from that Casull!

I shoot a Ruger Blackhawk with 17.5 Grains of 2400 and a 300 grain bullet. A cowboy grip allows the gun to roll back in your hand while the grip of a Smith pushes directly back on you.

I happened to bring up the Casull in a local gun shop and a customer there said he fired less than 20 rounds because the trigger guard kept smashing his trigger finger so he sold it (I wish I was there to get that great deal). I didn't say it but he really ought to learn how to hold a gun.

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:
The best way to make sure bullets don't "jump crimp" really has nothing to do with the crimp and everything to do with the sizing of the case. Handloader had an excellent article several years ago about this very subject, written by Ross Seyfried if memory serves. The gist of the article was to ensure the sizer ball was at least a couple of thousandths smaller than the projectile, and if you were having trouble with projectiles jumping crimp during firing, to take a few thousandths off the sizer ball.

The article showed a round loaded with a cast bullet, and the grease grooves of the projectile could be seen by looking at the outside of the case!

The thing about it having nothing to do with crimping and everything to do with case sizing is simply not true. My bet is that neither you nor Ross have ever loaded full house loads for either a 454 Casull or a 460 S&W Magnum.

Yep it's always the crimp, sizing has nothing to do with holding the bullet in place.

And with all due respect, both of you are full of crap. If you think 1/8" of .010-.015" brass is going to hold a 300-grain bullet in place when about three tons per square inch of rearward thrust takes over the revolver, you might want to re-study physics and then think again.

Grumulkin, you are just flat wrong... I have my Model 83 and I have loaded for not only it but SEVERAL other big bores, probably for almost as long as you have!

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:
And with all due respect, both of you are full of crap. If you think 1/8" of .010-.015" brass is going to hold a 300-grain bullet in place when about three tons per square inch of rearward thrust takes over the revolver, you might want to re-study physics and then think again.

Grumulkin, you are just flat wrong... I have my Model 83 and I have loaded for not only it but SEVERAL other big bores, probably for almost as long as you have!

I have 8 sets of dies and not one of them has an adjustable sizing die so I can make sure bullets don't creep out of the shell but my crimp dies all allow adjustments for crimp to address such an issue.

You're trying to convince us that pure friction is all that is needed to hold a bullet in a shell and a shell pinched into a grove has no effect? I don't think so... and let me add this pure friction you think is so holding is between a brass surface and a lubricated bullet... I don't think so.

Think what you wish. There is a reason that companies supplying reloading equipment offer sizer dies with different diameter expanders. Do a search sometime about using very fine sandpaper to take a couple of thousandths off a ball so you get a better grip on the bullet. You might be surprised at what you read.

The ability to adjust crimp does two things: it allows for differences in crimp groove depth based on bullet design, and also allows for differences in brass length.

Like I said: think what you wish...

I been reloading for the biggies such as the 454, 460, 475 Linebaugh, 500 JRH, and 500 S&W for many years.
The biggest issue with any of them is keeping the bullets in place for the last round or two remaining in the cylinder.
Polishing the expanding die can help but the best thing I found to do is to seat and crimp in different steps. I do use a separate crimping die.

Here is the way it is with things like the 454 Casull, the 460 S&W Magnum and the 500 S&W Magnum revolvers. People buy them and then, thinking the recoil is too bad, download them or, LOL, use cast bullets. Until you have loaded one of these to their full potential, you won't understand the thing about bullets moving under recoil.

In those handguns, both crimping and case tension on the case are important in keeping the bullet in place. In the case of my 460 S&W Magnum, when I used new cases that hadn't been sized or flared at all, bullets moved under recoil. When sized and then flared barely enough to allow bullet entry into the case, a sufficient crimp using a regular roll crimp could not be obtained to hold the bullets. Trying to obtain more crimp with that die crushed the cases even with trying to crimp in a separate operation. The only thing that works for me is to size the case, flare it barely enough to permit bullet entry and then use a Lee Factory Crimp Die.

Now look here pee squirter, for a person to have been loading for 40 years as you say you have done, and not know or understand neck tension is a bad case of dumbphukedness!

Even SHOOTAWAY understands neck tension.

Almost all my rifle ctgs hold bullets in place with pure neck tension-except for the 600 Overkill, it gets neck tension and crimped.

My friend JR that once owned 4W ammo showed me the right way to get max safe pressure loads in a 45Colt......guess what.....no crimp. With 328gr cast bullets at 1350 from a 6" Ruger Blackhawk. Neither I nor dozens of my friends that have attended Linebough big bore shooting sessions have bullets jump when proper neck tension is applied.

40 years of handloading should know this.

WHAT I REALLY WANT TO SEE IS A SCOOPED CASE FULL OF 296 VIBRATED DOWN AND TOPPED OFF WITH MORE POWDER AND STILL BE ABLE TO HOLD A BULLET IN PLACE.

I wonder what the OAL is when loaded like that........I know all too well what fits in a Freedom 83 cylinder...

In the early days of reloading with smokeless powders duplex and triplex loads were used because the choice of powders were limited.

Today we have a number of powders available for every conceivable case and bullet combination. There is no need to attempt the dubious balancing act of using duplex and triplex loads. Just select the proper powder and load them up.

quote:

Originally posted by PaulS:
In the early days of reloading with smokeless powders duplex and triplex loads were used because the choice of powders were limited.

Today we have a number of powders available for every conceivable case and bullet combination. There is no need to attempt the dubious balancing act of using duplex and triplex loads. Just select the proper powder and load them up.

+1

Not all 500 S&W's are large clunky double-actions. I have two single actions by Reeder in a BMF and a Professional Hunter using his own actions. Let me tell you, the 4-1/2" ported BMF in the 500 S&W with full house loads ain't no 454 Casull and will test any mans confidence after just 2 shots, much less 5.....cowboy hold or not! The same for my BMF in 475 Maximum. As others stated, if you want a higher power level than the 454....go bigger. My PH in 500 S&W has a 7.5" octagon barrel, un-ported and is just right. The same for my FA83 in 475 Linebaugh with a 5.5" octo barrel. BTW, I also have a FA83 7.5" in 454 so I know all the possibilities. Forget the powder experimentation, that's why they build the big boys.

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:
Think what you wish. There is a reason that companies supplying reloading equipment offer sizer dies with different diameter expanders.

EXPANDERS?? You've been saying sizing, which is it?

I think you're having a different conversation than I am.

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin: In those handguns, both crimping and case tension on the case are important in keeping the bullet in place. In the case of my 460 S&W Magnum, when I used new cases that hadn't been sized or flared at all, bullets moved under recoil. When sized and then flared barely enough to allow bullet entry into the case, a sufficient crimp using a regular roll crimp could not be obtained to hold the bullets. Trying to obtain more crimp with that die crushed the cases even with trying to crimp in a separate operation. The only thing that works for me is to size the case, flare it barely enough to permit bullet entry and then use a Lee Factory Crimp Die.

Amen, it's really simple. I'm getting confused here, one guys been talking about sizing when he really means expanding (I think), this has gone all over the place.

I think I've got just about all the information I can handle on the the subject of duplex/triplex loads. Thanks guys, I'll let you know how the gun shoots.

Sure is a pretty gun though, if I say so myself.

I better go readjust my sizing die. LMAO

The early casull triplex loads were published in a few different places by po ackley. They contained bullseye, unique, and 2400. If I remember right they didn't get quite as much velocity as you can with published h110 loads