Hi all,

Man its been AGES since I've been to accurate-reloading. Glad to see Saeed and everyone is doing well, I recognize a few names here from years ago.

Anyway on to my problem. I'm trying to get some Barnes 140gr XLC's to shoot in my 7STW. Working from Barnes XLC load info, I've tried alot of combinations but really nothing is truely acceptable (IMO).

The rifle is a lefthanded Winchester M70. Unfortunately to get the cartridges to fit in the magazine the bullets must be seated quite deep in the case. Winchester also seems to have alot of freebore for this particular caliber so add that to seating the bullets deep enough to fit in the mag, its just terrible on paper performance.

The best grouping I've got is at Barnes max 88grns of H1000. Groups were about 2" but the bolt was very stiff. I've reciently tried RL25 and 84grns gives me 3+ inch groups at 100yards.

I have shot 160grn Sierra BT's with good results (around 1") but on animal performance was utterly insufficent last year (animal died instantly but it looked like a bomb went off half way in, a tougher bullet is required).

I really like the XLC performance from other calibers, and I REALLY like the "coating" they used on the XLC. I just wish I could get them to shoot.

Anyone have ideas? I'd really love to find someone with a similar rifle that found an accurate load. It would at least be a starting point, right now I'm scratching my head and wondering what to try next.

-DallanC

Oh, no, yet another dreaded bullet failure resulting in instantaneous death. When will these manufacturers ever learn that we want an animal to run at least 200 yards so that we can follow the blood trail? And besides that, I just can't stand wasting good lung meat to a quick-expanding bullet!

Heh,

In this case its warrented. The animal was a cull cow elk, the bullet hit the front shoulder on the way in and exploded. The animal died from shock, none of the internals were harmed. I would have at least expected part of the bullet fragements to penetrate into the chest cavity but it didn't happen.

So while you are correct in that 1 shot = 1 kill, it was very very poor performance IMO, and something I absolutely will be improving on for the future.

-DallanC

I loaded up some of the 140 XLC's a few years ago for a right hand model 70. I don't have the information about what OAL I seated the bullets to. The powder I used was IMR 7828 and CCI #250 large rifle mag primers. Accuracy was good in the rifle I shot the loads in.

I've heard from a few people 7828 works well for this caliber, unfortunately all the local stores no longer carry it. I'll see if I cant dig some up ... somewhere.

-DallanC

Why tussle with the copper bullets if the gun barrel just don't like them ?

There are scads of good 7mm bullets these days that should work better than the GK , including the Accubonds and Interbonds .......looks to me to be a good reason to try out something new.....

For the purpose, the 140XLC is hard to beat. I used to shoot it in my 7mag, and it really liked RL22, at "oh-my" speeds.

With the 270 and 130xlc's, ditto. Lots and lots of RL22. With the 280, lots and lots of RL19. I don't know what it is, but in all those guns, pressure was the trick. In all those rifles, I could get 4 under 1". All primers were Fed215.

Maybe try RL22 and RL25? HTH, Dutch.

Try the Barnes Triple shocks. Much better accuracy has been reported with these.

I have had the same problems with accuracy and that type of bullet.
They shoot well out of my H-S Precision rifle but really bad out of every other rifle I have tried.
I actually have better luck with the plain copper Barnes bullets as far as accuracy.

I have heard through the grapevine that the key is your rifle barrel has to be very very clean to get good groups with them.
I am skeptical about that and if that is the case sure does not seem worth the trouble.

Unless you are just convinced that is the bullet you want to use because of bullet performance you may want to try another bullet or you could try the fail safes, they should have the same type of terminal performance, just not as high a BC.
Good luck anyway.

I had a 7mm WBY that you could not hit a dog in the ass at 20 steps with the XLC bullets but it would shoot the uncoated X bullets MOA at 100 yards. My STW shoots extremely well with the 160 grain Accubonds and Retumbo.

FWIW--I have a 30-378 that doesn't seem to like anything. But I was goofing around with some 150 xlc's at about 3700 fps. The more I shot the groups became better. For some reason I need to run a dozen to 15 rounds through that gun and then it starts shooting. Evidently the barrel needs to be "seasoned with the blue coating". I can't explain it but that's the way it is. AND that's not the kind of caliber you like to sit down and run 15 rounds through it before you see it's ready to hunt!! I did have the luck of taking a 6x6 elk at about 80 yds a few years ago. It was a quartering shot that entered behind the rib cage and exited by the front shoulder on the other side of the elk. That little 150 hit the upper bones of that shoulder and turned 'em into mush after going through about 2.5 ft of elk. Yup the elk fell in its tracks and tossed his head in a circle a couple times and that was that. It made me think the "speed kills" theory has credibility.

I agree with Pop, try some the Tripple Shocks, in my .30 caliber they are giving me 1/2" groups.

Give 7828 a try. I loaded that in a .270 Wby with 140 XBT's, and it took off like a scalded dog. 3350FPS out of a 26" barrel, shot between 1 1/4"- 1 1/2" groups.

Check this article out: http://www.barnesbullets.com/bullet_talk/archive_files_seating_depth.htm

Barnes reccomends seating the bullets .05" off the lands as a starting point, then working from there. See also http://www.barnesbullets.com/bullet_talk/from_the_lab.htm

.050 is a start... but I wouldn't waste the bullets... start at .065, and work back .005, no kidding...

also, you are shooting moly... some barrels require 10-20 rounds to get them evenly coated....

does it shoot the same weight barnes X with decent groups?

on bullet failure, if it doesnt exit, it must have at least 75% weight retention... imnsho, and much less is a bullet failure...

most folks don't seem to realize (that is, most that argue about bullet's failing, and the animal dieing is NOT a failure) dont seem to realize that I am not talking about a shooter or gun or hunting failure. I am talking about a bullet, in a 150 LBS or 1500 lbs critter, that failed. sure, if the critter dies well, you did your part... but if the bullet comes apart, the frickin bullet failed.

it doesn't have ANYTHING thing to do with examples of the animal dieing the instant it was shot. I've shot hogs and deer with BTs. I will never again, as i have yet to recover, without exit wounds, anything more than 20% fragments. In fact, a largish hog, shot behind the ribs, will generally NOT have an exit with BTs..

but it will with most SPs. or even partitions.

bts are for paper, imho

jeffe

DallanC,

After experiencing the same disappointingaccuracy with the XLCs (.300WInMag, 180grainers) and with great regrett, since I love its terminal performance I turned to the CT Fails Safe (excellent performance both on paper and on game)

Just my two cents

Regards

Thanks all for the tips and suggestions. I really like moly so I think my long term solution is to use Fastex or something similar to do my own coatings. My #1 most favorite bullet is the Nosler Partition but I really wanted to give XLC's a try. Its just unfortunate the group like a herd of rabbits.

-DallanC

Sakofan,
Thanks... in my, admitedly limited, materials knowledge, there are 2 dry lubes, that can survive shooting down a barrel...
moly and teflon... and teflon would be so difficult (800degres to totally bond to the bullet during manufacture) and would flake off, I can't imagine them using that...

then again, I've been wrong before...

works exacly like moly coated bullets in my 300 win, for what it's worth

jeffe

Barnes testing achieved best accuracy with Re-25 and 7828 . From the #3 manual.

DallanC,

Don't give up on those bullets yet. I will go out on a limb and say that almost any bullet can shoot MOA in any rifle (old or new) if the load is properly tuned. The easiest method to tune a load is the ladder method.

I will touch upon the principle quickly then elaborate on the method.

Basically all barrels vibrate "whip" because steel is flexible and when a significant force such as a rifle shot occurs it will move. The trick is to get the barrel to whip just right so when the bullet leaves the barrel it is as stable as possible. Another factor that will affect the bullet after it leaves the barrel is muzzle blast. A max charge of fast powder has less muzzle blast than a max charge of slower powder meaning that typically faster powders are more accurate. On the other hand a faster powder peaks quicker than a slower powder that continues to accelerate the bullet longer meaning that typically a slower powder produces more velocity.

Determine the max OAL (for hunting it might be the max that will fit in your magazine) your rifle chamber is capable of then determine the safe max charge your rifle is capable of (I always field test w/chrony and observe fired cases closely w/a magnification glass). I like to back off .005-.010" from there and call this my safe OAL.

Load up 15-20 of this load seating each .003" deeper than the previous one (mark all cases w/marker, for example w/my 7mm-08 OAL are 2.800"/2.797"/2.794" and so on).

Go to a 200yrd or longer range to ladder test (longer ranges will produce most dramatic differences). Make sure your barrel has been fouled with at least two rounds before you start testing. With a duplicate target beside you and a good spotting scope, start with the longest OAL and work backwards carefully recording on the duplicate target the point of impact of each bullet, and make sure there are not increased pressures as you progress to shorter OAL's. After you are complete, what you will find is a 3-4rd sequence (or maybe a couple of sequences) where a group shot much tighter. At this OAL, your rifle barrel was in balance. I have found some bullets like Nosler BT's and Sierra's to be very forgiving (meaning the entire group is not bad, but there is still at least one 3-4rd group that is better than the rest). Other bullets like the Barnes and Hornady's will "spray" all over the target and the group that was in balance will be VERY apparent. Pick the average OAL between the 3-4 rds that made up the group and test it against the longest OAL your rifle will take. I find that most times the ladder tested OAL is more accurate than the longest OAL possible. Every bullet (I only use hunting bullets for silhouettes and obviously hunting), but not every powder, has been tuned to MOA or better in my rifles by using this method. My rifles are inexpensive Remington 700 and Interarms Mauser, and with the exception of one bedded action barrel, they are as made at the factory.

Most times I have achieved MOA w/XLC's, X's and others using this method with less than 50rds fired.

Deke.