No problems seating/crimping straight wall pistol ammo -- .357 mag. .44 mag. I just seat and crimp all in one stroke.

But longer rifle cases: 45/70 Govt. and .458 Win. Mag. The "crimp" stroke buckles the case.

Besides the buckle, the cases scrape up the bullets. Not a pretty picture.

My current solution is to seat the bullet in one operation and then adjust the die and crimp in a second pass.

I've decided also that both these rifle calibers don't need much of a crimp. I'm shooting a Ruger No. 1 and so the ammo doesn't sit in a mag and get exposed to recoil.

Even crimped the bullets turn in the brass under finger pressure.

Discuss . . .

Thanks.

If you can turn the bullet in the case, then you have a die or epander ball problem. When seating the bullet, you should have enough neck tension that the crimp only keeps the bullet from moving forward under recoil. For handguns, I seat & crimp in separate steps.

I seat and crimp in one die and dont have issues. I bell the case moth slightly in the resizing die, and make sure the die is set correctly so it doesnt start the crimp too early.

I think you have already arrived at the right conclusion. If you do decide you need some crimp use a Lee Factory Crimp die. It has a collet that crimps based on the die setting and ignores the length of the case. They will not buckle or bulge a case.

The crimp is sitting in the cannalure on the bullet. The bullet doesn't move in or out, just turns on the cannalure.

quote:

Originally posted by Zedo:
The crimp is sitting in the cannalure on the bullet. The bullet doesn't move in or out, just turns on the cannalure.

If those were "my" Cartridges, then something would be wrong.

When the Cases are run through the Resizer, that always reduces the Neck Diameter enough to prevent any Bullets from "turning" when Seated whether it is Crimped or not. (If you are using the Lee Collett Dies or anyones Bushing Dies then any degree of Resizing is possible.)

A Roll Crimp, as is typically done in 45-70 and 458WinMag Dies, should simply rotate the edge of the Case Mouth into the Cannelure for a bit stronger grip. And to prevent the Bullet from easing Forward in magazine equipped rifles. With some Slow Powders used in the 357Mag and 44Mag, this is important to get the Powder to the proper operating pressure. With the typical Powders used in the 45-70 and 458WinMag, it should also help them, but is not as critical as the Revolver Loads.

Perhaps you are over-crimping, which is easy to do if you do not Trim the Cases all to the same length and the Set-Up is done on a "short" Case.
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I prefer to fully Prep all my Cases, like the 45-70(Resized, Trimmed, Chamfered) and run it through the Expander Die just enough so the Bullet will set atop the Case Mouth. Then Polish the Case Mouth with 0000SteelWool on a Bore Brush with only a couple of twists, no need for a power drill. Obviously the 458WinMag does not use an Expander Die, so the Case Mouth would simply be Polished.

Next I put that Case into the Press, raise the Ram and screw in the Seating Die until it just touches the Case Mouth, then back it off a quarter turn and turn the Lock Ring down - without setting the Set Screw. And back the Seating Stem to the top of the Die.

Then begin loading that Case - Primer, Powder and set a Bullet on the Case Mouth. Put it in the Press and raise the Ram so it goes into the Seating Die. Lower the Seating Stem until it touches the Bullet and eyeball how much farther the Stem needs to be screwed in to get the Bullet to the Cannelure. This can also be done with a set of Calipers and is real quick to lower the Seating Stem to "almost" the correct position. Check and adjust the Seating Stem in until the Cannelure aligns just below the upper edge of the Cannelure.

Screw the Seating Stem all the way up and move the Seating Die Lock Nut up the Die body.

Raise the Cartridge into the Seating Die and lower the Die until the Seating Die contacts the Case Mouth. Lower the Case and screw the Seating Die in just a bit - 1/8th turn or so. Raise the Ram and the Bullet will be given a slight Roll Crimp. Lower the Cartridge and look at it closely to determine if it Rolled the Case Mouth in enough or if the Case needs just a bit more. When done properly, there will be no Bullet turning in the Case.

Now for a couple of nice Set-Up Tricks.

Trick 1. Once you get the Crimp properly adjusted, screw down the Lock Ring and secure the Set Screw. This is a process that takes a bit of care, because it is possible for the Lock Nut to move and cause the Crimp Process to be hosed-up. I put a piece of Masking Tape on the Die Threads above the Lock Nut and then place a Witness Mark on the Tape and the Lock Nut with a Magic Marker, unscrew the Seating Die and Luck Nut slightly, realign the Witness Marks and secure the Set Screw. It is easier done than reading about it.

Screw the Seating Die back down until the Lock Nut jams and ease the Cartridge back into the Crip position. Withdraw the Case and verify the Bullet is properly Crimped and not rotating in the Case Mouth. If it rotates, some portion of the above process is hosed-up.

Trick 2. Remove the Seating Die from the Press. Take one of the Spacer Washers from either your 357Mar or 44Mag Die Set and put it on the Seating Die. Screw the Seating Die back into the Press until it bottoms out atop the Spacer.

Place the Loaded Cartridge back in the Press and Raise the Ram. Screw the Seating Stem down until it touches the top of the Seated and Crimped Bullet and secure the Seating Stem Lock Nut finger tight.

Trick 3. Remove the Seating Die from the Press and measure the Over-All-Die Length(ODL) from the top of the Seating Stem to the bottom of the Die with a set of 0.001" capable Calipers. Write this measurement on both your Reloading Notes and that exact Bullet Box. Now you can adjust the Seating Stem precisely without needing to retain a Set-Up Cartridge.

When this method is used on Non-Crimped Cartridges, you can also adjust the Seating Depth exactly by simply changing the ODL. It should be re-set each time a new box of Bullets is opened - even if they are the same Part#.
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Now you can screw the Seating Die back into the Press - with the Spacer - and Seat all the Bullets. Then before ever removing the Seating Die from the Press - loosen the Seating Stem Lock Nut and Unscrew the Seating Stem to the very top.

Remove the Seating Die from the Press, remove the Spacer, put the Seating Die back into the Press until the Die Lock Ring bottoms out and you are ready to begin Crimping, and they will all be the same.
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If the Cases are not Trimmed after each firing, the lengths can vary and cause erratic Crimping or Case Wall Buckling. And the same exact Shell Holder should be used each time.

No Bullets "turn" in the Case Mouth of my Cartridges.

Best of luck to you.

Zedo, are we safe in assuming you are not loading 0.452 caliber bullets?

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
If you can turn the bullet in the case, then you have a die or epander ball problem.

Not necessarly so.

Zedo, been there done that.
I had a fair bit of trouble with the .458WM
(this is a comedy of errors)

First, if your scraping the bullets in, have you used the expander? My dies came with a seperate one. ie not on the deprime rod.

Then I had trouble with the crimp, as all feel was lost with the powder compression needed.
Too much crimp will obviously buckel the case but it also CAN make the bullet become loose in the neck. The crimp pressure with a big press is quite light.

With my case lengths all different I load the shortest first, adjust the die as needed, and go by feel rather than just slam the press full up. I could trim to the same length, but then they'd all be too short.

But I don't see the need for a crimp at all on a No. 1, if the neck tension is normal.